New User/AirNav Radar Box

[superstar]

Hello everyone,

1. Does Air Nav systems sell a product that you can use to listen to real Air Traffic control communications like the ICOM Transcievers?.

2. Is it illegal to use Air Nav Radar box in u.k., since it shares flight data?.

It would be very grateful, if someone can answer these questions.

Thanks.

[RodBearden]

Hi Superstar and welcome to the forum.

Answers: 1 - I don't think so, since, in the UK, that is illegal. THere are some websites where live ATC radio traffic is broadcast. There are some threads about this on the forum - do a search.

2: No - while the contacts picked up by your own RadarBox are displayed in real time on your computer, the shared data is delayed by 5 minutes, and thus is legal.

Rod

[CoastGuardJon]

Hi Superstar and welcome to the forum.

Answers: 1 - I don't think so, since, in the UK, that is illegal. THere are some websites where live ATC radio traffic is broadcast. There are some threads about this on the forum - do a search.

2: No - while the contacts picked up by your own RadarBox are displayed in real time on your computer, the shared data is delayed by 5 minutes, and thus is legal.

Rod

Hi Rod, sticking rigidly to the RT laws, re 1. yes, you're right - we're not supposed to listen to, or eavesdrop on any ATC or aircraft transmissions, but as we all know there are hundreds of listings, and at airshows, the organisers publish the frequencies.   I feel we're safe to listen, as long as the information overheard is not misused in any way (or used for gain).

Re 2., is it actually a legal requirement that a 5 minute delay is built in to the network traffic, or a voluntary delay imposed by AN to avoid potential problems with the authorities?    Does it really make a huge difference when global traffic is hundreds/thousands of miles away, local traffic is received and displayed as soon as it's decoded, so you're not going to miss anything passing overhead - these are intended as a questions, not statements of fact?

[RodBearden]

Hi CGJ

Of course, for private use, scanners etc are tolerated in the UK, but AirNav would be pushing the bounds too far to do it commercially.

As to the 5-minute rule, as far as I know, it's not laid down in law anywhere - it's just to stop ill-informed outsiders giving virtual radar a bad name.

Any comment, AirNav?

Rod

[Deadcalm]

In terms of the 5 minute delay, I suspect the legality is just a red herring for those who who have most to lose if it all goes tits up to cover their backs.

If you can see your own local traffic live, then seeing everyone else's live as well should really be of no issue at all.  After all, should you wish to use the information for illicit activity you are far more likely to use targets close to you than anything else...

It's probably just one of those groundless urban myths.  Should those powers that be take exception to our activities, it's far more likely that there would be an illegality created in respect of the unauthorised receipt of ALL ADS-B transmissions.

But that's only my personal opinion, of course.

DC

[DaveReid]

The 5-minute delay is a de facto, industry-wide standard endorsed by authorities up to and including the FAA as an accepted way of rendering aircraft positional data harmless.

You can argue with it all you like, but it won't get you anywhere.

[superstar]

Thank you very much for your reply.

[Deadcalm]

Don't disagree with that, Dave, but the legality was in question - it's not illegal as far as I can ascertain.  And live aircraft positional data can be no more harmful/harmless than that derived from a network without a 5 minute delay. Get us anywhere it may not, but it is interesting to discuss...

DC

[DaveReid]

Don't disagree with that, Dave, but the legality was in question - it's not illegal as far as I can ascertain.

No argument from me there - 5 minutes has absolutely no legal significance.

[HadNav]

The 5 minute delay means nothing to me, as long as mylocal flights are logged and plotted in realtime! Is this the case, as I understand it as a new RadarBox user.

[HadNav]

I'm a licenced radio amateur. As I understand the law, it's OK to hear or see it, as long as you don't pass it on to a 3rd party!

[Allocator]

I'm a licenced radio amateur. As I understand the law, it's OK to hear or see it, as long as you don't pass it on to a 3rd party!

Not quite.  You are only entitled to listen to transmissions if you are entitled to do so and are intended for you.  Some transmissions are classed as "public" like the BBC, amateur radio etc, but try saying that police and aircraft/ATC transmissions are meant for you.  These are the UK rules and they are different in other countries.

[DaveReid]

Some transmissions are classed as "public" like the BBC, amateur radio etc, but try saying that police and aircraft/ATC transmissions are meant for you.  These are the UK rules and they are different in other countries.

ADS-B squitters (though not interrogation responses) could arguably be classed as "navigational transmissions" and if so would therefore fall within the class of transmissons that the public is allowed to receive under the WTA.  Obviously this has yet to be tested in court.

[Allocator]

Good point.  I remember when you could be prosecuted for using a radar trap detector in a car - the actual charge was "receiving a transmission when not entitled" or something similar.

Finally somebody won a case by saying that the detector only told him transmissions were there and that he wasn't actually listening to the signals.  Now this is "case law" in the UK and if you are prosecuted, it is for attempting to aviod being caught for speeding.

The Law - It's a strange thing.

[CoastGuardJon]

Good point.  I remember when you could be prosecuted for using a radar trap detector in a car - the actual charge was "receiving a transmission when not entitled" or something similar.

Finally somebody won a case by saying that the detector only told him transmissions were there and that he wasn't actually listening to the signals.  Now this is "case law" in the UK and if you are prosecuted, it is for attempting to aviod being caught for speeding.

The Law - It's a strange thing.

The speed trap radar/laser detectors are held to be legal as they are totally passive - no oscillator radiating signals, the judge in the case referred to, also made the point that a motorist using a detector, would actually slow down, slowing other traffic and achieving just what the cameras are supposed to achieve (I actually use a Cobra device, and it is surprising there is a camera in the Gatso boxes in Cornwall, only got 4 or 5 cameras between 40-50 sites).   The annoying thing with Gatso cameras and these ruddy Tom Toms and similar, they have the sites shown, but very often an incorrect limit shown, the result is motorists chucking the heavy anchors out - look at the tyre marks near the camera sites.    In Cornwall now, the "Safety Camera Teams" go out mobile with a plain van which parks up in lay-bys (usually just past overhead bridges or brows of hills - lorries get a hammering, more revenue for more cameras and vans, bugger all to do with safety at most locations though.