AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: smcm on June 28, 2010, 10:05:47 AM
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Loganair/Flybe have again changed their Flight ID's / callsigns and since this change I am no longer picking up Route info for any of the Saab 340 aircraft operating out of Kirkwall or Sumburgh.
Anyone else noticed this - probably only of interest to Orkney and Tarbat.
Also, how do Flybe allocate Flight ID's / callsigns ? When it was Loganair/BA the callsign was simply the last three digits of the flight no - so BA8918 was Logan 918. Now we have Flight ID/callsigns with two digits and two letters.
The only logic I can see is that generally the digits and letters increment by one ie
Glasgow-Kirkwall Logan 51KF
Kirkwall -Glasgow Logan 52LG
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Hello
We too have noticed this lack of routings on the Loganair recently also. It is a nuisance but I dont know of anything that could be done to cure it since there appears to be no connection between the BEE flights and the LOG flights that they actually transpond.
Andrew
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Yep, same here. And even DaveReid's flight lookup service (http://www.flightroutelookup.com/FlightRoute/FlightLookup.wso?op=FlightLookup) doesn't seem to recognise Flybe/Loganair flight IDs :(
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I have noticed this also in easyJet, thomsonfly, etc...
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The lack of Route info has only happened recently and I am still picking up the Flight ID's.
Do the flight crew input Flight ID's and Route info - or how does it work ?
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Hello
The pilot puts in his flight number and it is transmitted on the transponder. Our box then picks it up. Once our box software has that flight number it checks the database of routes that we have for a route corresponding with that number. There is no ability for the pilot to transmit his routing so it is different from AIS on ships where they input their destination manually.
Andrew
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Thanks, Andrew
I'm just wondering when you say flight number is that the BE number or the Flight ID/callsign which we see transmitted ?
What makes it more confusing is that if you look at the HIAL website for Kirkwall airport you get a Flybe and a British Airways flight number for each Loganair/Flybe flight.
eg the 15.50h Kirkwall to Edinburgh is both BE6898 and BA4198
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Hello
By flight number I mean the LOG one or whatever a plane actually transmits. I have periodically seen a Loganair transmitting L (zero) G instead of the standard LOG. Unless a pilot accidently does it they shouldn't be transmitting BA or BE codes unless it is one of the real Flybes or British Airways.
Andrew
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I can't understand why when Flybe took over from BA they started using this more complicated system of Flight ID's.
If you are listening on vhf airband as well as using Radarbox it's not easy to relate the Flight ID/callsign to the BE flight number - whereas before it was simple.
And why change the Flight ID's every so often as well - especially when the BE flight numbers generally don't change ?
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I can't understand why when Flybe took over from BA they started using this more complicated system of Flight ID's.
If you are listening on vhf airband as well as using Radarbox it's not easy to relate the Flight ID/callsign to the BE flight number - whereas before it was simple.
It's not being done for your convenience.
The issue of "callsign confusion" (two aircraft in the same bit of airspace at the same time with similar Flight IDs that could be mistaken for one another) is being taken very seriously.
ATC couldn't care less that the passengers on board the flight using "BMA3EV" as a callsign actually have "BD121" on their tickets, if it reduces the possibility of one crew following ATC instructions intended for another aircraft.
Anything that lessens the risk of two aircraft being in the same place at the same time is fine by me.
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Hello
I think we all know that things in aviation are not done for our convenience otherwise the use of ADS-B would be mandatory :)
What I cant understand regardless of the reasons for using different flights is why our old LOG flights had routings but nobody seems to know the routings of the new ones.
Andrew
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It's ironic that the reason we got Airnav to implement decoding of Flight ID on non-ADS/B aircraft in the first place was because of Loganair flights!!
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1372
DaveReid, any chance you can get Loganair flight IDs into your Route Lookup service?
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It gets even more confusing.
I've just heard/seen the Loganair/Flybe Saab 340 from Sumburgh to Kirkwall using callsign/Flight ID - LOG92MU. I would have expected it to change its callsign/Flight ID to LOG93NV for the next leg of the flight.
It's just taken off from Kirkwall to Inverness still using callsign/Flight ID LOG92MU !
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It gets even more confusing.
I've just heard/seen the Loganair/Flybe Saab 340 from Sumburgh to Kirkwall using callsign/Flight ID - LOG92MU. I would have expected it to change its callsign/Flight ID to LOG93NV for the next leg of the flight.
It's just taken off from Kirkwall to Inverness still using callsign/Flight ID LOG92MU !
Isn't that a 2-leg flight: Sumburgh-Kirkwall-Inverness ? If so, then I would expect the same callsign to be used on both legs.
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DaveReid, any chance you can get Loganair flight IDs into your Route Lookup service?
I'll see what I can do, but I'd be fibbing if I said it was a high priority :-)
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It is a 2-leg flight but since Flybe took over they have, until what I heard today, used different callsigns on each leg.
When BA had the franchise with Loganair they would use, for example, the callsigns LOG 918A on Sumburgh-Kirkwall, then LOG918B Kirkwall-Inverness and if onward to Glasgow 918C.
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Another query I have is about Eastern Airways.
They run a service from Aberdeen to Scatsta using Saab 2000 aircraft but never transmit a Flight ID - is that just down to the crew or is there some other reason ?
However within the last few days I have seen an Eastern Airways Saab 2000, G-CFLV- transmitting the Flight ID EZE610P, but I have no ideaa what route it is on.
They also run a Jetstream 41 from Aberdeen to Stavanger which always displays Flight ID and Route info.
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Hi guys,
I'm crew for Flybe and talking to the flightdeck the new alpha numeric callsigns are a service which was offered by NATS to eliminate the possibility of 2 similar flight numbers being on the same frequency at the same time. When we check in for a flight and the flightdeck print out the flightplans for the sectors we are operating it is written on the flighplan what the callsigns will be for each sector i.e BE9XY. It drives them mad too and makes our hobby harder as these call signs will change everyday and not be a allocated to a specific flight number on a generic basis.
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Thats very intresting spanman, thanks for that information.
If that is the case and its expanding to other airlines it will be very hard to get the routes unless NATS hands over there lookup tables each day (Very unlikely)
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these call signs will change everyday and not be a allocated to a specific flight number on a generic basis
Are you sure about that ?
Apart from the fact that changing the alphanumeric Flight ID every day would seem a recipe for even more confusion, it's certainly not my experience with the myriad of carriers who use alphanumeric callsigns at LHR - Alitalia, BA, BMI, Lufthansa, Iberia, Swiss, etc.
The relationship between the timetabled flight number and the alphanumeric callsign is fixed pretty well for the whole season.
Even flybe seem pretty consistent - I have 50-odd BEE flights logged so far this morning:
BEE13Y (62)
BEE14K (36)
BEE1DH (71)
BEE1LM (25)
BEE1TA (77)
BEE2AF (48)
BEE2BP (51)
BEE2NH (64)
BEE2RL (69)
BEE2XM (50)
BEE2ZY (38)
BEE3DW (54)
BEE3EP (68)
BEE3FV (61)
BEE3KB (64)
BEE3MH (67)
BEE4GX (77)
BEE4YN (67)
BEE5KV (49)
BEE5UN (62)
BEE5WF (70)
BEE5XP (64)
BEE67Y (59)
BEE6AB (68)
BEE6BA (70)
BEE6CM (75)
BEE6HW (54)
BEE6JR (36)
BEE6KG (93)
BEE6LD (53)
BEE6PV (67)
BEE6RP (28)
BEE76Y (56)
BEE78U (80)
BEE79B (60)
BEE7CB (55)
BEE7DE (68)
BEE7KC (53)
BEE7KU (69)
BEE8HB (44)
BEE8LZ (64)
BEE9CP (70)
BEE9EL (53)
BEE9VQ (68)
The figures in brackets are the total number of occasions that alphanumeric Flight ID has been picked up in the past, so it looks to me like they are using a pretty consistent system.
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It's certainly not my experience that the Loganair/Flybe Flight ID's change every day. When Loganair/Flybe change their timetables to the Northern Isles they also change the Flight ID's - but they remain the same for the duration of that timetable ie several months.
However I don't think that the original question has yet been answered - why is it that this recent change of Flight ID has led to loss of Route info but previous changes haven't ?
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Hi Dave, I can see that Alpha numeric callsigns are being repeatedly used but can you tie up a specific alpha numeric callsign to a particular flight each day? Example being our first MAN-CDG each day has the flight no BE7201 .If the callsign is say BE9TV is it being used for that particular flight next day or for another route at another time which would explain callsigns being repeated?. With nearly 70 aircaft operating approx 8 sectors per day that 's an incredible amount of callsigns to allocate . I have only reported what the flightdeck have told me but will investigate further when I fly later and get a definate answer so you can get it from the preverbial horses mouth.
Cheers,Mark
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If the callsign is say BE9TV is it being used for that particular flight next day or for another route at another time which would explain callsigns being repeated
Well taking the first flight on my list, BEE13Y, here are the 62 instances from my log since the beginning of the summer seaon, showing first/last times and altitudes:
BEE13Y 28/03/2010 08:35:18 08:57:16 20575' 3275'
BEE13Y 29/03/2010 08:28:29 08:52:00 22650' 5150'
BEE13Y 31/03/2010 08:13:19 08:43:33 18350' 3975'
BEE13Y 01/04/2010 08:03:36 08:23:14 19600' 5425'
BEE13Y 03/04/2010 08:15:50 08:33:14 16875' 3900'
BEE13Y 04/04/2010 08:17:53 08:39:45 22850' 3800'
BEE13Y 05/04/2010 08:05:48 08:27:26 20200' 3225'
BEE13Y 06/04/2010 08:13:44 08:34:08 22425' 4375'
BEE13Y 07/04/2010 08:06:01 08:28:53 22900' 4600'
BEE13Y 08/04/2010 07:57:48 08:22:41 22650' 4275'
BEE13Y 09/04/2010 08:01:08 08:26:03 18850' 3100'
BEE13Y 11/04/2010 08:09:17 08:34:25 20325' 2850'
BEE13Y 12/04/2010 08:10:21 08:35:33 15000' 2750'
BEE13Y 22/04/2010 08:03:32 08:16:00 20300' 14400'
BEE13Y 25/04/2010 08:25:54 08:54:05 21550' 2875'
BEE13Y 26/04/2010 08:06:16 08:29:06 15000' 4275'
BEE13Y 27/04/2010 08:16:18 08:34:01 19650' 3700'
BEE13Y 28/04/2010 08:07:32 08:28:03 21625' 3625'
BEE13Y 29/04/2010 08:18:26 08:40:16 21400' 2900'
BEE13Y 30/04/2010 08:07:14 08:33:16 22300' 5650'
BEE13Y 01/05/2010 08:06:03 08:26:08 23425' 5400'
BEE13Y 04/05/2010 08:04:18 08:27:54 22125' 13600'
BEE13Y 07/05/2010 08:13:55 08:31:03 18450' 10225'
BEE13Y 15/05/2010 08:11:01 08:27:25 16000' 5775'
BEE13Y 16/05/2010 08:20:55 08:40:43 19975' 3800'
BEE13Y 19/05/2010 08:03:22 08:29:10 18550' 4650'
BEE13Y 20/05/2010 08:15:13 08:38:20 15200' 3400'
BEE13Y 22/05/2010 08:14:49 08:43:33 17175' 2525'
BEE13Y 23/05/2010 08:09:12 08:36:53 25000' 1675'
BEE13Y 25/05/2010 08:05:35 08:28:57 19375' 3125'
BEE13Y 26/05/2010 07:58:51 08:34:56 18600' 8950'
BEE13Y 27/05/2010 08:05:28 08:33:46 19250' 3625'
BEE13Y 28/05/2010 08:05:09 08:30:36 20975' 3950'
BEE13Y 29/05/2010 08:05:53 08:31:00 20650' 3300'
BEE13Y 30/05/2010 08:00:16 08:23:24 23600' 3250'
BEE13Y 31/05/2010 08:10:36 08:30:38 19500' 2900'
BEE13Y 01/06/2010 08:08:59 08:28:06 21400' 1600'
BEE13Y 02/06/2010 08:23:07 08:47:04 22575' 6475'
BEE13Y 04/06/2010 08:12:21 08:39:11 15375' 1225'
BEE13Y 06/06/2010 08:17:27 08:37:20 15400' 3025'
BEE13Y 08/06/2010 08:09:07 08:38:14 15200' 1750'
BEE13Y 09/06/2010 08:13:09 08:36:03 15175' 2800'
BEE13Y 10/06/2010 08:06:55 08:45:06 15000' 1500'
BEE13Y 11/06/2010 08:06:27 08:32:35 15250' 2925'
BEE13Y 12/06/2010 08:17:30 08:33:46 15000' 2875'
BEE13Y 13/06/2010 08:20:48 08:40:59 17450' 3000'
BEE13Y 14/06/2010 08:22:26 08:48:11 15000' 1525'
BEE13Y 15/06/2010 08:09:55 08:40:52 15000' 1125'
BEE13Y 16/06/2010 08:13:34 08:34:55 15000' 1150'
BEE13Y 17/06/2010 08:10:38 08:33:39 15000' 1250'
BEE13Y 18/06/2010 08:06:42 08:42:58 15000' 1250'
BEE13Y 19/06/2010 08:05:56 08:34:51 15850' 1375'
BEE13Y 20/06/2010 08:33:26 08:53:15 18975' 1225'
BEE13Y 21/06/2010 08:09:15 08:33:30 15000' 2600'
BEE13Y 22/06/2010 08:16:47 08:34:42 15000' 2575'
BEE13Y 23/06/2010 08:14:04 08:34:53 17225' 2850'
BEE13Y 24/06/2010 08:16:52 08:48:29 18050' 2900'
BEE13Y 25/06/2010 08:06:54 08:26:22 17225' 3275'
BEE13Y 26/06/2010 08:15:48 08:43:36 17825' 1325'
BEE13Y 27/06/2010 08:24:11 08:43:30 15275' 1700'
BEE13Y 28/06/2010 08:14:59 08:32:19 15000' 2625'
BEE13Y 29/06/2010 08:08:07 08:34:17 17475' 2775'
In all cases, the subsequent flight was BEE6CM, so those are at least two flights that always arrive and depart, respectively, from the same airport (which I'm pretty sure is Gatwick in this case).
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Airnav, any chance of getting these updated Loganair flights into the routes database? I see you mention on another thread some problem with dealing with alphanumeric Flights IDs, but up until 4 days ago my Radarbox was successfully retrieving routes for alphanumeric Flight IDs okay from your server.
Some examples:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/4745727027_b1b7581685_o.jpg)
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Ok a bit confusion flying around here. So let us explain.
We are using FlightStats to get back route information from flights. The flights which use alphanumeric require lookup tables to get the actual flight id back which we can identify the route with.
Now some of these lookup tables are easy to work out and they have been put in place by FlightStats (and even us). Hence some of the alphanumeric routes work fine.
However those where the lookup table is not stable or its not been worked out yet thats where we are not getting any routes.
As mentioned on others threads, this is NOT something we are directly looking at. We hope FlightStats will catchup with the tables that are stable. Though the ones which are not stable or not identified yet these will not produce any routes.
This is an issue faced by many tracking websites and route lookups services.
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Thanks for the excellent explanation. So we need to wait for FlightStats to work out the lookup table for Loganair/Flybe.