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Author Topic: HELP  (Read 35221 times)

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Navman

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Re: HELP
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2008, 05:09:47 PM »
AirNav,

How come pre-amps can stand up to static, did you not build adequate static protection into RB?

I’m surprised that you are recommending a DC-Blocker to prevent static reaching the RB. DC Blocks are intended to prevent relatively low voltage used to supply mast head amplifiers via the coax from reaching the receiver input.

If you simply block the static, eventually the static voltage will build-up to a level greater than the maximum working voltage of the DC Block and then flash across and reach the RB input.

The answer is to bleed away the static voltage from the antenna before it builds up.

Come on AirNav Tech guys you can do better than this. Give us a sensible and effective solution to this problem

Jeff


ChrisGR

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Re: HELP
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2008, 05:37:26 PM »
Hi to all
Antennas like WiMo GP-1090 (I don't have this antenna  or like this one) it's impossible to bring down on RB some kind of static DC or similar power.
The inside wire (antenna element), covered by this PVC (or equivalent material) does not allow the element  to have a contact with air and static power.
In some cases the static power in this PVC material grounded by the metallic pole where it is supported this antenna.
The most possibilities to destroy the device from static is where the antenna is naked wire (like original RB antenna) in to heavy weather or wet environment.

Chris


 

Navman

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Re: HELP
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2008, 05:56:33 PM »
Chris,

I can assure you that coating the antenna with PVC or other insulation will not prevent static build-up. Have you ever noticed how static sparks will jump from nylon clothing or seen sparks jump from a plastic comb when you comb your hair?

I use a PVC/fibre-glass coated antenna for my Air-band Receiver and Ham Radio Equipment. I have witnessed a static spark jump across the open circuit coax plug during static rain storms exactly as my metal construction antenna for 1090 MHz.

Jeff

ChrisGR

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Re: HELP
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2008, 06:17:13 PM »
Hi Jeff
In to the other side i have never in my HAM equipment some faults from coated antennas like Diamond X6000A Tribander or Watson W-7900 in to a couple transmitters connected to this antennas in all weather conditions.
I have bad static experience with HF vertical antennas like Huster 6-BTV who is the Mark V  final stage eater and of course not only.
A few antenna tuner and RF linear.
Never again the coaxial connector to my equipment in difficult situation. -:)

Chris

Navman

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Re: HELP
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2008, 06:35:39 PM »
Hello Chris,

The static build-up on my VHF/UHF antenna has never caused any damage or other problems to my Ham Radio equipment in 25 years plus using them. This is because the equipment is “designed to withstand static from the antenna” as all radio equipment should be.

The only reason I noticed the static spark across the open circuit plug of my VHF/UHF antenna was after carrying out tests following 2 x failures of my RadarBox from static on the 1090 MHz antenna.

Jeff    GW6CNS

Allocator

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Re: HELP
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2008, 07:19:43 PM »
All I can say, and I probably said this earlier in the thread, I've used the standard RB antenna outside on the roof-light for months, the external BS1100 for even longer and the Kinetic SBS-1 standard antenna - without any problems at all.  I always unplug the antenna when I swithch the PC off, or when I can hear thunder, but I've had my RadarBox for 12 months now and it's just as sensitive as when I got it.

I'm not saying that static isn't a problem, but this issue just isn't one I've experienced.  I'm a radio amateur of some 25 years now, so maybe I've just been lucky with all my antenna's and radio gear.  I've never had any arcing or sparking when connecting antenna's.

Although we need to be aware of static and the problems it might cause RadarBox, I do think that we have to keep all this in proportion.  Do we have a list of the RB units that have had this problem, how many units are we talking about, are the serial numbers in the same range.  Might this be a component batch problem rather than a design issue?  All things to consider before we go down the "doom and gloom" route I think.

Oh.... there's a big black cloud over here - no thunder though :-)

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AirNav Support

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Re: HELP
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2008, 07:45:10 PM »
Hi all,

Firstly some of these posts are getting out of hand now and we covered the point and then again people (same people) are asking the same question over and over.

1.) This issue has affected a handful out of 1000+ customers. So put that into perspective first. Even so with the low amount we have been investigating. Furthermore they have only occured using external antennas.

2.) The RadarBox does have protection but what you are missing is that the receiver for these ADS-B pluses has to be very sensitive. There has to be a balance.

3.) Preamps - A pre-amp can actually inject DC on the coaxial cable. That's why users should install also a DC Bias Injector near the power supply to send the voltage upwards to the pre-amp. These DC Bias Injectors don't let DC voltage to get into radarbox. It is similar to receiving any kind of DC voltage by means of static electricity produced by the wind or thunderstorms.

Number 3 is better explained in the attached that was posted earlier in this topic.

In final words, the RadarBox is fine and nothing has been found pointing the blame at that. We have suggested what our hardware guys have found. If you think there may be a better solution then we are all ears and happy to listen.

BUT do not again point the blame back at the RadarBox as we have spent weeks testing and it and confirming that is not the case.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 07:46:45 PM by AirNav Support »
Contact Customer/Technical support via:
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CarlosAbreu

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Re: HELP
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2008, 08:51:40 PM »
Airnav Support, thanks for your post, I'm clarified.

After your explanation I understand the way things work, a simple language for a non expert person is important to clarify doubts.

Thanks to all other members for support. I will keep my actual configuration (ANRB + Wimo antena + Preamp + DC Bias injector).

Brgds
CA
Station: PGANRB100514
Software Version: 6.01.001
Antenna: Wimo GP-1090 (AS-1090 / BT-1090)
Cable: Ecoflex 10" (15m)


AirNav Development

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Re: HELP
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2008, 09:19:00 PM »
A small note from the development team: we are reading this topic for a few days now and we would like to note (adding to our support mention) that RadarBox is now being used by more than 1500 customers and this static problem has been reported by not more than 10.

It is also quite strange to see that forum members well known for working for our competition have been checking this topic and the identities of the users writing on it almost daily.

It is widely known that due to the lack of arguments from the technical/quality point of view, our competition is, always, trying to give the idea that the RadarBox product is weak and the software is unstable. Unfortunately the reality shows a completely opposite opinion from ADS-B users: RadarBox is now selling 200+ units per month, we have some new projects rolling and we intend to reach the mark of 5000 users quite soon.

To finish we have received some posts on our support giving the idea that AirNav is going the same way as our competition: promising features to get sales and never releasing them - and dedicate all our time to professional users.

To these ones we are happy to announce that:
- V1.6 beta testing will start later this week;
- ShipTrax release will happen in Aug/Sep;
- Expect an important announcement to all Airlines and Airports that want a professional real-time flight tracking solution available.

So expect the best from our company: unlike companies that prefer to play hidden games, we will always, ALWAYS, be totally honest with our users. We are here for you to be happy and will do everything to achieve that.

So keep the suggestions coming and be sure we will always work to meet all our users needs.

flightchecker

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Re: HELP
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2008, 08:46:52 AM »
Quote
It is also quite strange to see that forum members well known for working for our competition have been checking this topic and the identities of the users writing on it almost daily.

Agree, AirNav, I certainly belong to those "members writing almost daily" that you're adressing above, BUT I'm certainly not "WORKING FOR THE COMPETION". I'd like to make this clear. Not to AirNav, but to all of the other readers. It is purely a matter of interest, and at least in the beginning of this thread, I thought I was able to convince AirNav that there was a need to help their customers getting around the issue, it is about. But, if there have been answers at all from AirNav's side, they  would not solve the problem "at its roots", even not very professional, as one would expect by a producer of RF Equipment.
I feel free to say, that I can judge, what I'm talking about, I've simply got some technical background on it. Why don't you Airnav feel free to for instance answer my question regarding
the ESD test standard applied during the RB's development / production.
Don't you think, this would convince customers more than those "proposals", that finally leaves at least some of them "in the rain", if they suffer problems with antennas, others than the internal one coming with RB.

Have a look at John Racars's (the originator of this thread) questions in his last posting: none of them has been answered by AirNav. You'd better do, instead of claiming "competiton at work", which, at least in my opinion, is kind of distraction regarding the subject.

And yes, forgot to mention: I do have a problem in so far, as I recommended WiMo's GP1090 to
John. (mine working  since more than two years meanwhile, and without any complains of course) No way to make friends, as you will agree.

Karl
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 09:49:23 AM by flightchecker »

Allocator

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Re: HELP
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2008, 09:45:35 AM »
I think it highly unlikely that the "ESD test standard applied during the RB's development / production" are going to make a blind bit of difference to the average RadarBox user - me included.

I'm afraid, in my opinion, that this thread is attempting to create a problem where one doesn't exist.  Being a simple sort of bloke, I look at it this way:

- Is there a major problem with the design and operation of the RadarBox hardware - no

- Is there a major problem with the design and operation of the RadarBox software - no

- Is AirNav providing advice and guidance to RadarBox users and acting quickly to resolve any actual (not perceived) problems that occur - yes

- Have I had any failures with my RadarBox hardware operating it almost non-stop at a number of mobile and fixed locations, using both standard and non-standard internal and external antenna's - no

So, give it a rest chaps - I've had enough of this topic.  AirNav, unlike the competing product forum, don't lock threads at the slightest provocation.  Nor do they delete threads from posters who make the slightest criticism of their product.  However, I think that they would be well justified in locking this thread!

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AirNav Support

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Re: HELP
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2008, 10:16:09 AM »
Karl,

You seem to be totally wrong on a few points. So let me clarify them to you:

1.) We did not associate you with the competitors but they have been involved in firing this topic to where it is now.

2.) There have been answers from us including a diagram showing the issue and how to rectify it. Very silly to say we have not replied at all.

3.) You seem to think that we need to answer every question you ask us regarding detailed specs to how the RadarBox was produced and made and its certifications etc. We do not have provide this detail of information to protect our design. As stated before in various times it is protected and we ensure it followed guidelines.
(As mentioned in the earlier post if this was not the case we would have loads of RBs being returned with issues, this is NOT the case)

4.) Johns Question was answered by our various posts and diagram. This is a forum and there are lots of posts everywhere, we do not reply to everyone individually. If you want individual replies email support. This forum is not a support forum for us. We are here though because we are happy to help.

IMPORTANT:

Before you post, please have a think whether you can ask these questions to another company and actually get a reply. You should be thankful that we are happy to reply to these posts and help in this way. As other companies would either ignore or lock the posts.

At the end of the day, a very small amount of RadarBoxes have been affected when using external antenna (not our antenna or the one we sell on our site). As we said is likely to be caused by static however please note a few customers who had this issue have also emailed to say there was storm activity nearby or unusual weather conditions.

I would however like to ask the question to you customers, what do you think we should do considering the RadarBox has no fault?

I think you will realise we don't need to do anything except advise people that when purchasing external antennas to be wary of static and lightning (However this is common sense to all sensitive receivers). What’s more interesting is we have actually fixed all the RBs sent to us without saying this is not covered in the warranty as strictly speaking this isn't, this is because we care about the customers and service.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 10:23:17 AM by AirNav Support »
Contact Customer/Technical support via:
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flightchecker

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Re: HELP
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2008, 01:38:01 PM »
Hi All

as Allocator proposes: "let's give it a rest", (and see what  the future will do regarding this subject  [my "add-on"]).

"Waves are getting higher" during discussion sometimes, and seems they have done during the one it is about, which I'm involved in though not affected myself, just trying to help one ore the other forum member that is less experienced in a discussion leading into technical detail.

Let's look at it this way,
Karl
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 04:20:04 PM by flightchecker »

Navman

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Re: HELP
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2008, 05:52:09 PM »
OK I agree,

I think that we have all kicked this problem around enough now. AirNav have shown great patience and could have easily pulled the plug on this thread.

I want to say that although I have had two failures of my RB that point to static from my outside antenna. I still remain very impressed with the performance my RadarBox. The few small bugs in the software I can live with, not a problem for me.

I will continue testing my solution to static as already described using a CA23RW Static Discharge Protector together with a Bleed Resistor connected across the coax.

I hope that it will be third time lucky and I have no further problems.

Jeff

John Racars

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Re: HELP
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2008, 06:28:59 PM »
I will continue testing my solution to static as already described using a CA23RW Static Discharge Protector together with a Bleed Resistor connected across the coax.

Hi Jeff,

As No-Technican (normaly I only interested to see the aircrafts over my screen without anymore) please tell me how I should connect all this. It is all ACABADABRA for me as "end-user" of the RadarBox.

I think, whenever my RadarBox is back from repear, I will not connect my outside antenne anymore. Reading the reaction from Support where they say that there are sold 5000+ RB in between and there are 40 cases of "our" problem, there must be 4960 users using the default antenna only....

It looks to me that on all places of the world it can be windy from time to time and there will be thunderstorms everywhere aswell. So this are not special weatherconditions for the UK, Germany or the Netherlands only.

Thank you and I hope your problems are solved verry soon. Please, if so, any advice will be welcom!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 06:38:00 PM by AirNav Support »
Best Regards from the Netherlands, John Racars
13 NM East of EHAM
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ANRB:
Version: 3D - 5.00.072
Antenna: outside WiMo GP-1090 (with ECOFLEX 10 cableconnection)
PC: Windows 7 SP 1 - 64 bit
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RadarBox24 station: EHAM4