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Author Topic: Shuttle Flights  (Read 27076 times)

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grasscutter

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Shuttle Flights
« on: July 06, 2010, 11:23:15 PM »
Anyone know how to determine the dept/arrival airports of the BA shuttle flights from the shuttle number showing. The same goes for BM.

DaveReid

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2010, 06:36:15 AM »
Anyone know how to determine the dept/arrival airports of the BA shuttle flights from the shuttle number showing. The same goes for BM.

Here's an extract from my routes database:

BA1301 SHT19S EGPD-EGLL
BA1303 SHT19N EGPD-EGLL
BA1304 SHT18Z EGLL-EGPD
BA1305 SHT19U EGPD-EGLL
BA1306 SHT18Y EGLL-EGPD
BA1307 SHT19M EGPD-EGLL
BA1308 SHT18C EGLL-EGPD
BA1309 SHT19A EGPD-EGLL
BA1312 SHT18F EGLL-EGPD
BA1313 SHT19T EGPD-EGLL
BA1314 SHT18V EGLL-EGPD
BA1315 SHT19W EGPD-EGLL
BA1316 SHT18E EGLL-EGPD
BA1317 SHT19X EGPD-EGLL
BA1318 SHT18H EGLL-EGPD
BA1321 SHT13C EGNT-EGLL
BA1323 SHT13X EGNT-EGLL
BA1324 SHT12J EGLL-EGNT
BA1325 SHT13E EGNT-EGLL
BA1326 SHT12H EGLL-EGNT
BA1327 SHT13H EGNT-EGLL
BA1332 SHT12G EGLL-EGNT
BA1333 SHT13J EGNT-EGLL
BA1334 SHT12N EGLL-EGNT
BA1335 SHT13K EGNT-EGLL
BA1336 SHT12Q EGLL-EGNT
BA1337 SHT13L EGNT-EGLL
BA1338 SHT12T EGLL-EGNT
BA1382 SHT2A  EGLL-EGCC
BA1384 SHT2E  EGLL-EGCC
BA1385 SHT3N  EGCC-EGLL
BA1386 SHT2J  EGLL-EGCC
BA1387 SHT3P  EGCC-EGLL
BA1388 SHT2M  EGLL-EGCC
BA1389 SHT3R  EGCC-EGLL
BA1391 SHT3U  EGCC-EGLL
BA1394 SHT2V  EGLL-EGCC
BA1395 SHT3F  EGCC-EGLL
BA1396 SHT2P  EGLL-EGCC
BA1399 SHT3L  EGCC-EGLL
BA1402 SHT2K  EGLL-EGCC
BA1403 SHT3V  EGCC-EGLL
BA1404 SHT2R  EGLL-EGCC
BA1407 SHT3Y  EGCC-EGLL
BA1409 SHT3Z  EGCC-EGLL
BA1432 SHT8B  EGLL-EGPH
BA1433 SHT9T  EGPH-EGLL
BA1434 SHT8F  EGLL-EGPH
BA1435 SHT9U  EGPH-EGLL
BA1438 SHT8K  EGLL-EGPH
BA1439 SHT9F  EGPH-EGLL
BA1441 SHT9Z  EGPH-EGLL
BA1442 SHT8R  EGLL-EGPH
BA1443 SHT9B  EGPH-EGLL
BA1445 SHT9J  EGPH-EGLL
BA1446 SHT8Y  EGLL-EGPH
BA1448 SHT8A  EGLL-EGPH
BA1452 SHT8C  EGLL-EGPH
BA1453 SHT9N  EGPH-EGLL
BA1454 SHT8H  EGLL-EGPH
BA1455 SHT9P  EGPH-EGLL
BA1458 SHT8L  EGLL-EGPH
BA1459 SHT9Y  EGPH-EGLL
BA1462 SHT8V  EGLL-EGPH
BA1463 SHT9C  EGPH-EGLL
BA1464 SHT8S  EGLL-EGPH
BA1465 SHT9E  EGPH-EGLL
BA1472 SHT6C  EGLL-EGPF
BA1474 SHT6G  EGLL-EGPF
BA1475 SHT7S  EGPF-EGLL
BA1476 SHT6L  EGLL-EGPF
BA1477 SHT7Y  EGPF-EGLL
BA1479 SHT7W  EGPF-EGLL
BA1482 SHT6T  EGLL-EGPF
BA1483 SHT7Z  EGPF-EGLL
BA1484 SHT6R  EGLL-EGPF
BA1486 SHT6E  EGLL-EGPF
BA1487 SHT7H  EGPF-EGLL
BA1488 SHT6F  EGLL-EGPF
BA1489 SHT7P  EGPF-EGLL
BA1492 SHT6J  EGLL-EGPF
BA1493 SHT7U  EGPF-EGLL
BA1494 SHT6M  EGLL-EGPF
BA1495 SHT7X  EGPF-EGLL
BA1497 SHT7A  EGPF-EGLL

BD001 BMA1NL EGPF-EGLL
BD002 BMA2CW EGLL-EGPF
BD003 BMA3NL EGPF-EGLL
BD004 BMA4CW EGLL-EGPF
BD006 BMA6CW EGLL-EGPF
BD007 BMA7NL EGPF-EGLL
BD008 BMA8CW EGLL-EGPF
BD009 BMA9NL EGPF-EGLL
BD010 BMA3LN EGLL-EGPF
BD011 BMA1WC EGPF-EGLL
BD012 BMA2LN EGLL-EGPF
BD013 BMA3WC EGPF-EGLL
BD014 BMA4LN EGLL-EGPF
BD015 BMA5WC EGPF-EGLL
BD016 BMA9CW EGLL-EGPF
BD018 BMA18  EGLL-EGPF
BD019 BMA19  EGPF-EGLL
BD020 BMA20  EGLL-EGPF
BD050 BMA3HY EGLL-EGPH
BD051 BMA9EH EGPH-EGLL
BD052 BMA4HY EGLL-EGPH
BD053 BMA1EH EGPH-EGLL
BD054 BMA5HY EGLL-EGPH
BD055 BMA2EH EGPH-EGLL
BD056 BMA2HY EGLL-EGPH
BD057 BMA3EH EGPH-EGLL
BD058 BMA7HY EGLL-EGPH
BD059 BMA4EH EGPH-EGLL
BD060 BMA8HY EGLL-EGPH
BD061 BMA5EH EGPH-EGLL
BD062 BMA9HY EGLL-EGPH
BD063 BMA6EH EGPH-EGLL
BD064 BMA1HY EGLL-EGPH
BD065 BMA7EH EGPH-EGLL
BD080 BMA9FP EGLL-EGAC
BD081 BMA81F EGAC-EGLL
BD082 BMA2FP EGLL-EGAC
BD083 BMA9XF EGAC-EGLL
BD084 BMA3FP EGLL-EGAC
BD085 BMA2XF EGAC-EGLL
BD086 BMA4FP EGLL-EGAC
BD087 BMA87G EGAC-EGLL
BD088 BMA5FP EGLL-EGAC
BD089 BMA4XF EGAC-EGLL
BD090 BMA6FP EGLL-EGAC
BD091 BMA5XF EGAC-EGLL
BD092 BMA7FP EGLL-EGAC
BD093 BMA6XF EGAC-EGLL
BD575 BMA575 EGCC-EGLL
BD576 BMA576 EGLL-EGCC
BD577 BMA577 EGCC-EGLL
BD578 BMA578 EGLL-EGCC
BD579 BMA579 EGCC-EGLL
BD581 BMA4PK EGCC-EGLL
BD582 BMA5QA EGLL-EGCC
BD584 BMA7QA EGLL-EGCC
BD585 BMA2PK EGCC-EGLL
BD587 BMA8PK EGCC-EGLL
BD588 BMA588 EGLL-EGCC
BD589 BMA589 EGCC-EGLL
BD590 BMA4QA EGLL-EGCC
BD591 BMA1PK EGCC-EGLL
BD592 BMA1QA EGLL-EGCC
BD593 BMA7PK EGCC-EGLL
BD594 BMA8QA EGLL-EGCC
BD598 BMA598 EGLL-EGCC
BD668 BMA668 EGLL-EGPD
BD669 BMA669 EGPD-EGLL
BD671 BMA671 EGPD-EGLL
BD672 BMA672 EGLL-EGPD
BD673 BMA673 EGPD-EGLL
BD674 BMA674 EGLL-EGPD
BD675 BMA675 EGPD-EGLL
BD676 BMA676 EGLL-EGPD
BD677 BMA67G EGPD-EGLL
BD678 BMA678 EGLL-EGPD
BD679 BMA679 EGPD-EGLL
BD680 BMA680 EGLL-EGPD

HTH
Dave
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bratters

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2010, 06:48:04 AM »
Hi Dave - am I right in assuming that all those in your list are already in our databases and therefore appear automatically in MyFlights?

John

DaveReid

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2010, 07:11:55 AM »
Hi Dave - am I right in assuming that all those in your list are already in our databases and therefore appear automatically in MyFlights?

I'm afraid I have no idea.  I haven't had any discussions with Airnav about providing route data, although of course they are perfectly free to use the above information if they so wish. 

All I know is that the server doesn't currently seem to be returning routes for any of the alphanumeric flight numbers, although it does recognise some (but not all) of the purely numeric ones such as the BD Aberdeen flights, e.g. BMA672, but not BMA671.
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grasscutter

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 07:26:10 AM »
Thanks Dave, especially for typing in the long list!!!!  Are there other references I can look at for eg RYR 2YP and EZY 12BL and charter flights eg TOM 6VL?

DaveReid

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2010, 07:44:03 AM »
Thanks Dave, especially for typing in the long list!!!!
 
No typing involved, just a couple of mouse-clicks to run a query on my database :-)

Quote
Are there other references I can look at for eg RYR 2YP and EZY 12BL and charter flights eg TOM 6VL?

EZY12BL is EGGW-LEBL.  TOM6VL is EGTE-LCPH.

RYR2P is a flight number used by Ryanair for ad hoc positioning flights (hence the unusual single letter P suffix).  So there's no point in having an entry in the routes database for that one.

HTH
Dave
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bratters

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2010, 08:20:22 AM »

I'm afraid I have no idea.  I haven't had any discussions with Airnav about providing route data, although of course they are perfectly free to use the above information if they so wish


This clearly illustrates one aspect of the problem that I simply can't grasp - no doubt due to my lack of technical knowledge as to how the systems work.

There is a load of information regarding the flight/route details available and in the public domain. This is clearly illustrated by your ability to produce the list above. However, for whatever reasons, seemingly this same information cannot be collected, collated & then packaged up into a file that can be downloaded and put into our databases.

It is so frustrating to know that the details of the routeless flights in my MyFlights can simply be Googled!!! Years ago in the Wacars/Acars days, if Lufthansa for example produced a summer schedule, the excellent and much esteemed Terry Wade had it listed and downloadable in a flash. Simples!! Apparently not. :(

Afraid I'm developing an unhealthy paranoia about routes but it comes to something when Grasscutter can innocently ask for Shuttle details and you can give him chapter and verse. 

 

DaveReid

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2010, 08:52:46 AM »
This clearly illustrates one aspect of the problem that I simply can't grasp - no doubt due to my lack of technical knowledge as to how the systems work.

There is a load of information regarding the flight/route details available and in the public domain. This is clearly illustrated by your ability to produce the list above. However, for whatever reasons, seemingly this same information cannot be collected, collated & then packaged up into a file that can be downloaded and put into our databases.

It's not a technical issue at all, it's simply a question of applying some resources (time, money, industry knowledge) to the problem.

My views on AirNav's approach to gathering data are well known and I won't repeat them here (no disrespect intended towards those who enthusiastically contribute information).  

We've already been told, quite understandably, by the updating team that they have their hands full with aircraft updates and don't have any spare capacity to collate routes data.
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ACW367

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 09:27:33 AM »

I'm afraid I have no idea.  I haven't had any discussions with Airnav about providing route data, although of course they are perfectly free to use the above information if they so wish.  


This clearly illustrates one aspect of the problem that I simply can't grasp - no doubt due to my lack of technical knowledge as to how the systems work.

There is a load of information regarding the flight/route details available and in the public domain. This is clearly illustrated by your ability to produce the list above.  

There is a lot of info in the public domain, but it is not centrally collated.  Airnav need a single source.  Currently their source is flightstats. The person that can produce a breakdown of Easyjet Alpha-numeric tie-ups cannot give you data for China Southern Airlines or Chautauqua or Webjet Brazil or OLT Germany or New Zealands Great Barrier Air.  You seem to think Airnav are UK centric and must oblige all the UK market.  They are not, they must oblige the worldwide market.  Airnav need one source for these all.  Flightstats do a good job, but to tie up all routes for all worldwide airlines would require a team of around 200 worldwide correspondents constantly monitoring it.  No company in the world would dedicate those resources to this hobby.  

Airnav take the best current central info currently available on the web, that flighstats provide, at not inconsiderable cost.  They have given you the best solution in that they created an open architechture database for you to update records that you find from the 6-7000 open source public domain sources for flight details. If you have a beef about routes, take that up with Airnav's supplier Flightstats.  Airnav do a great job providing the architecture you need to modify the central data to suit your region.

bratters

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 10:40:48 AM »

There is a lot of info in the public domain, but it is not centrally collated.  Airnav need a single source.  Currently their source is flightstats. The person that can produce a breakdown of Easyjet Alpha-numeric tie-ups cannot give you data for China Southern Airlines or Chautauqua or Webjet Brazil or OLT Germany or New Zealands Great Barrier Air.  You seem to think Airnav are UK centric and must oblige all the UK market.  They are not, they must oblige the worldwide market.  Airnav need one source for these all.  Flightstats do a good job, but to tie up all routes for all worldwide airlines would require a team of around 200 worldwide correspondents constantly monitoring it.  No company in the world would dedicate those resources to this hobby. 

Airnav take the best current central info currently available on the web, that flighstats provide, at not inconsiderable cost.  They have given you the best solution in that they created an open architechture database for you to update records that you find from the 6-7000 open source public domain sources for flight details. If you have a beef about routes, take that up with Airnav's supplier Flightstats.  Airnav do a great job providing the architecture you need to modify the central data to suit your region.

Thanks for that ACW367. A couple of points I would make:

"You seem to think Airnav are UK centric and must oblige all the UK market.  They are not, they must oblige the worldwide market."

If the product is marketed and sold in the UK, then the UK buyer/subscriber has every right to expect that details of "local" airlines such as Ryanair, Easyjet etc are fully covered. These are not peanut operations with half a dozen planes and they form a substantial part not only of the UK picture but of the European picture as well.
"Worldwide market" does not define a product that has different but limited applications in different countries - it defines a product that can be used satisfactorily in all countries in which it is intended to be sold and used.  TV, car or kettle, it has to be fit for purpose. Also "if I have a beef" about anything, I don't take it up with a components supplier, but the manufacturer.

Secondly : "Airnav do a great job providing the architecture you need to modify the central data to suit your region"

For me this is the nub of the matter. If I accept your view that worldwide coverage of all details of all aircraft from a single source is economically (and physically) a non-starter, then provision for simple idiot-proof manual updating on a local basis is the alternative. That means for many of us a quick download of collected & collated information such as Dave has provided above.

This is where I own up to and accept my singular lack of technical knowledge. Are you saying that I should be able to manually update my own routes database? If so,  it is presumably sufficiently easy enough for me to take Dave's route information and just fire it in to my PC?
The final question then is how do I do it please?


tarbat

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2010, 10:56:23 AM »
The final question then is how do I do it please?

This is how I imported Dave's list - it took 2 minutes.
1. Copy the list to clipboard
2. Paste into Notepad and add a CH date/timestamp
3. Save as text.csv
4. Import this file to the routes table using SQLite Maestro, with " " as the delimiter.

btw, thanks for the list Dave.  Do you have anything on Loganair?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 10:58:12 AM by tarbat »

bratters

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 11:10:03 AM »
Thanks Tarbat.

What's a CHdate/timestamp and what and where do I find this SQLite Maestro please?

Oh, and what's the "delimiter"?

Painful I know but at least I was a whizz in my own field once upon a time.

tarbat

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2010, 11:38:58 AM »
What's a CHdate/timestamp
CH is the field in the routes table used to determine when the route should be expired.  So, routes I added today had a CH date/timestamp of 20100707090000

what and where do I find this SQLite Maestro please?
It's an SQLite database tool - http://www.sqlmaestro.com/en/products/sqlite/maestro/

Oh, and what's the "delimiter"?
The field used in a CSV file to delimit each database field.  It's usually a comma (hence CSV = comma separated values), but SQLite Maestro can also accept CSV files with alternative delimiters such as a space.

You'll end up with these record in the routes table:


And this example in MyFlights:
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 11:50:29 AM by tarbat »

DaveReid

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 12:52:34 PM »
btw, thanks for the list Dave.  Do you have anything on Loganair?

You're welcome. 

As I mentioned before, Loganair are on my to-do list, but alas not very near the top :-)
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bratters

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Re: Shuttle Flights
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2010, 12:58:18 PM »
Thanks Tarbat - that will keep me out of mischief for a while.

Most kind of you - John