Loganair/Flybe Route info and Flight ID

[smcm]

It is a 2-leg flight but since Flybe took over they have, until what I heard today, used different callsigns on each leg.

When BA had the franchise with Loganair they would use, for example, the callsigns LOG 918A on Sumburgh-Kirkwall, then LOG918B Kirkwall-Inverness and if onward to Glasgow 918C.

[smcm]

Another query I have is about Eastern Airways.

They run a service from Aberdeen to Scatsta using Saab 2000 aircraft but never transmit a Flight ID - is that just down to the crew or is there some other reason ?

However within the last few days I have seen an Eastern Airways Saab 2000, G-CFLV- transmitting the Flight ID EZE610P, but I have no ideaa what route it is on.

They also run a Jetstream 41 from Aberdeen to Stavanger which always displays Flight ID and Route info.

[spanman]

Hi guys,
            I'm crew for Flybe and talking to the flightdeck the new alpha numeric callsigns are a service which was offered by NATS to eliminate the possibility of 2 similar flight numbers being on the same frequency at the same time. When we check in for a flight and the flightdeck print out the flightplans for the sectors we are operating it is written on the flighplan what the callsigns will be for each sector i.e BE9XY. It drives them mad too and makes our hobby harder as these call signs will change everyday and not be a allocated  to a specific flight number on a generic basis.

[AirNav Support]

Thats very intresting spanman, thanks for that information.

If that is the case and its expanding to other airlines it will be very hard to get the routes unless NATS hands over there lookup tables each day (Very unlikely)

[DaveReid]

these call signs will change everyday and not be a allocated to a specific flight number on a generic basis

Are you sure about that ?

Apart from the fact that changing the alphanumeric Flight ID every day would seem a recipe for even more confusion, it's certainly not my experience with the myriad of carriers who use alphanumeric callsigns at LHR - Alitalia, BA, BMI, Lufthansa, Iberia, Swiss, etc.  

The relationship between the timetabled flight number and the alphanumeric callsign is fixed pretty well for the whole season.

Even flybe seem pretty consistent - I have 50-odd BEE flights logged so far this morning:

BEE13Y (62)
BEE14K (36)
BEE1DH (71)
BEE1LM (25)
BEE1TA (77)
BEE2AF (48)
BEE2BP (51)
BEE2NH (64)
BEE2RL (69)
BEE2XM (50)
BEE2ZY (38)
BEE3DW (54)
BEE3EP (68)
BEE3FV (61)
BEE3KB (64)
BEE3MH (67)
BEE4GX (77)
BEE4YN (67)
BEE5KV (49)
BEE5UN (62)
BEE5WF (70)
BEE5XP (64)
BEE67Y (59)
BEE6AB (68)
BEE6BA (70)
BEE6CM (75)
BEE6HW (54)
BEE6JR (36)
BEE6KG (93)
BEE6LD (53)
BEE6PV (67)
BEE6RP (28)
BEE76Y (56)
BEE78U (80)
BEE79B (60)
BEE7CB (55)
BEE7DE (68)
BEE7KC (53)
BEE7KU (69)
BEE8HB (44)
BEE8LZ (64)
BEE9CP (70)
BEE9EL (53)
BEE9VQ (68)

The figures in brackets are the total number of occasions that alphanumeric Flight ID has been picked up in the past, so it looks to me like they are using a pretty consistent system.

[smcm]

It's certainly not my experience that the Loganair/Flybe Flight ID's change every day.  When Loganair/Flybe change their timetables to the Northern Isles they also change the Flight ID's - but they remain the same for the duration of that timetable ie several months.

However I don't think that the original question has yet been answered - why is it that this recent change of Flight ID has led to loss of Route info but previous changes haven't ?

[spanman]

Hi Dave, I can see that Alpha numeric callsigns are being repeatedly used but can you tie up a specific alpha numeric callsign to a particular flight each day? Example being our first MAN-CDG each day has the flight no BE7201 .If the callsign is say BE9TV is it being used for that particular flight next day or for another route at another time which would explain callsigns being repeated?. With nearly 70 aircaft  operating approx 8 sectors per day that 's an incredible amount of callsigns to allocate . I have only reported what the flightdeck have told me but will investigate further when I fly later  and get a definate answer so you can get it from the preverbial horses mouth.
           Cheers,Mark

[DaveReid]

If the callsign is say BE9TV is it being used for that particular flight next day or for another route at another time which would explain callsigns being repeated

Well taking the first flight on my list, BEE13Y, here are the 62 instances from my log since the beginning of the summer seaon, showing first/last times and altitudes:

BEE13Y  28/03/2010 08:35:18 08:57:16 20575'  3275'
BEE13Y  29/03/2010 08:28:29 08:52:00 22650'  5150'
BEE13Y  31/03/2010 08:13:19 08:43:33 18350'  3975'
BEE13Y  01/04/2010 08:03:36 08:23:14 19600'  5425'
BEE13Y  03/04/2010 08:15:50 08:33:14 16875'  3900'
BEE13Y  04/04/2010 08:17:53 08:39:45 22850'  3800'
BEE13Y  05/04/2010 08:05:48 08:27:26 20200'  3225'
BEE13Y  06/04/2010 08:13:44 08:34:08 22425'  4375'
BEE13Y  07/04/2010 08:06:01 08:28:53 22900'  4600'
BEE13Y  08/04/2010 07:57:48 08:22:41 22650'  4275'
BEE13Y  09/04/2010 08:01:08 08:26:03 18850'  3100'
BEE13Y  11/04/2010 08:09:17 08:34:25 20325'  2850'
BEE13Y  12/04/2010 08:10:21 08:35:33 15000'  2750'
BEE13Y  22/04/2010 08:03:32 08:16:00 20300' 14400'
BEE13Y  25/04/2010 08:25:54 08:54:05 21550'  2875'
BEE13Y  26/04/2010 08:06:16 08:29:06 15000'  4275'
BEE13Y  27/04/2010 08:16:18 08:34:01 19650'  3700'
BEE13Y  28/04/2010 08:07:32 08:28:03 21625'  3625'
BEE13Y  29/04/2010 08:18:26 08:40:16 21400'  2900'
BEE13Y  30/04/2010 08:07:14 08:33:16 22300'  5650'
BEE13Y  01/05/2010 08:06:03 08:26:08 23425'  5400'
BEE13Y  04/05/2010 08:04:18 08:27:54 22125' 13600'
BEE13Y  07/05/2010 08:13:55 08:31:03 18450' 10225'
BEE13Y  15/05/2010 08:11:01 08:27:25 16000'  5775'
BEE13Y  16/05/2010 08:20:55 08:40:43 19975'  3800'
BEE13Y  19/05/2010 08:03:22 08:29:10 18550'  4650'
BEE13Y  20/05/2010 08:15:13 08:38:20 15200'  3400'
BEE13Y  22/05/2010 08:14:49 08:43:33 17175'  2525'
BEE13Y  23/05/2010 08:09:12 08:36:53 25000'  1675'
BEE13Y  25/05/2010 08:05:35 08:28:57 19375'  3125'
BEE13Y  26/05/2010 07:58:51 08:34:56 18600'  8950'
BEE13Y  27/05/2010 08:05:28 08:33:46 19250'  3625'
BEE13Y  28/05/2010 08:05:09 08:30:36 20975'  3950'
BEE13Y  29/05/2010 08:05:53 08:31:00 20650'  3300'
BEE13Y  30/05/2010 08:00:16 08:23:24 23600'  3250'
BEE13Y  31/05/2010 08:10:36 08:30:38 19500'  2900'
BEE13Y  01/06/2010 08:08:59 08:28:06 21400'  1600'
BEE13Y  02/06/2010 08:23:07 08:47:04 22575'  6475'
BEE13Y  04/06/2010 08:12:21 08:39:11 15375'  1225'
BEE13Y  06/06/2010 08:17:27 08:37:20 15400'  3025'
BEE13Y  08/06/2010 08:09:07 08:38:14 15200'  1750'
BEE13Y  09/06/2010 08:13:09 08:36:03 15175'  2800'
BEE13Y  10/06/2010 08:06:55 08:45:06 15000'  1500'
BEE13Y  11/06/2010 08:06:27 08:32:35 15250'  2925'
BEE13Y  12/06/2010 08:17:30 08:33:46 15000'  2875'
BEE13Y  13/06/2010 08:20:48 08:40:59 17450'  3000'
BEE13Y  14/06/2010 08:22:26 08:48:11 15000'  1525'
BEE13Y  15/06/2010 08:09:55 08:40:52 15000'  1125'
BEE13Y  16/06/2010 08:13:34 08:34:55 15000'  1150'
BEE13Y  17/06/2010 08:10:38 08:33:39 15000'  1250'
BEE13Y  18/06/2010 08:06:42 08:42:58 15000'  1250'
BEE13Y  19/06/2010 08:05:56 08:34:51 15850'  1375'
BEE13Y  20/06/2010 08:33:26 08:53:15 18975'  1225'
BEE13Y  21/06/2010 08:09:15 08:33:30 15000'  2600'
BEE13Y  22/06/2010 08:16:47 08:34:42 15000'  2575'
BEE13Y  23/06/2010 08:14:04 08:34:53 17225'  2850'
BEE13Y  24/06/2010 08:16:52 08:48:29 18050'  2900'
BEE13Y  25/06/2010 08:06:54 08:26:22 17225'  3275'
BEE13Y  26/06/2010 08:15:48 08:43:36 17825'  1325'
BEE13Y  27/06/2010 08:24:11 08:43:30 15275'  1700'
BEE13Y  28/06/2010 08:14:59 08:32:19 15000'  2625'
BEE13Y  29/06/2010 08:08:07 08:34:17 17475'  2775'

In all cases, the subsequent flight was BEE6CM, so those are at least two flights that always arrive and depart, respectively, from the same airport (which I'm pretty sure is Gatwick in this case).

[tarbat]

Airnav, any chance of getting these updated Loganair flights into the routes database?  I see you mention on another thread some problem with dealing with alphanumeric Flights IDs, but up until 4 days ago my Radarbox was successfully retrieving routes for alphanumeric Flight IDs okay from your server.

Some examples:

[AirNav Support]

Ok a bit confusion flying around here. So let us explain.

We are using FlightStats to get back route information from flights. The flights which use alphanumeric require lookup tables to get the actual flight id back which we can identify the route with.

Now some of these lookup tables are easy to work out and they have been put in place by FlightStats (and even us). Hence some of the alphanumeric routes work fine.

However those where the lookup table is not stable or its not been worked out yet thats where we are not getting any routes.

As mentioned on others threads, this is NOT something we are directly looking at. We hope FlightStats will catchup with the tables that are stable. Though the ones which are not stable or not identified yet these will not produce any routes.

This is an issue faced by many tracking websites and route lookups services.

[tarbat]

Thanks for the excellent explanation.  So we need to wait for FlightStats to work out the lookup table for Loganair/Flybe.