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Author Topic: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis  (Read 9545 times)

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AirNav Development

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RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« on: July 14, 2009, 08:19:22 PM »
Interesting market analysis posted by an AirNav RadarBox dealer on another forum that explains why RadarBox has now a huge market share and why we continue to work to develop new features and additions to RadarBox.

"As a dealer who has followed RadarBox and SBS since there start, I felt its time I posted this but withholding my details. (Why because I sell both and might loose out if I speak up)

Early Days:

Kinetic appeared and it was fresh of breath air, new product new ideas and everyone who was following them was very excited. Kinetics forum was busy and ML&S there sales team was key to promote and did a good job in passing details to other dealers and stock. I picked up the SBS and was impressed and so were my customers. I checked the forums and new versions were released and Kinetic were a great company. I even could speak direct to a few of them when I had some customer questions.

2 Years later and AirNav:

Kinetic keen approach of innovation seem to have disappeared and with a rumours of bankruptcy of certain assets of the CEO it seemed Kinetic cut back in a lot of areas (software developer especially) and hoped that SBS would continue to sell as it was doing. However new boys AirNav Systems entered the market, infact they had previously asked Kinetic to do there Basestation software but were ignored (what innovation we might have had if that happened we will never know, sigh!)

AirNav had the snazzy adverts and forum support on there 24/7 which was very impressive. Kinetic hit back by reducing there price of there SBS and AirNav had a small impact on the market.

ML&S and the Kinetic Backlash

Kinetic had lost its shine by now, the Map Mode-S issue were they had lied to customers (yes it is lie when you advertise a major feature like that and never produce it). Kinetic had hidden behind security laws which wasn’t really transparent enough and lost current customers and potential customers as a result as well as some respect.

However AirNav being in a prime position with better features such as the network didn’t capitalise on the market. There first releases were software buggy but this wasn’t the main reason for there sales not being up to Kinetics level.

AirNav made a horrendous mistake in signing up with ML&S who were the main dealer (seller, distributor and probably best friends with Kinetic). ML&S was caught months later playing some dodgy tactics. One of these related to them trying to stop the AirNav Network by saying the police had been round to ML&S and trying to get AirNav to remove its feature to have a level playing field with SBS. Once this failed and AirNav stood its ground ML&S tried to force other dealers to buy SBSs from them rather than RBs and any dealers purchasing RBs only were not allowed.

When these tactics were exposed AirNav realised the business world they were in and moved there main dealer to WS and regrouped and gained there paranoia. ML&S suffered badly as there dodgy tactics were picked up by other dealers who found RB to be a better seller and ML&S reputation was called into question. (Rumours flew around as well this was not first time they have done something like this). I continued my relationship with them as SBS was still selling but was less than impressed by ML&S tactic.

AirNavs Rise:

Being with WS AirNav flourished and some of the major flaws in the earlier buggy software got ironed out. Dealers popped up around the world and the price of RB dropped but equally for the first time ever the dealer could make the same profit on a RB box as they would with a SBS sold at a higher price. (Major issue)

Crucially during this phase RB sales started to outgrow SBS. I sold many customers of SBS now a RB during this period. ML&S took over the Kinetic forum and it became obvious that things were getting bad for SBS against RB.

Recession:

Remember both RB and SBS market is very small. We are only talking about maybe a max sales of each being 3000 a year in a very good year. Both AirNav and Kinetic are not super giant companies with unlimited funds and people something which AirNav seems to get laboured with more. The recession would hit these two hard.

The recession across the world not only the UK has had an affect with orders for lots of products dropping orders but this was more an issue for Kinetic as sales from my own store and others I spoke too had dropped significantly against the RB.

Up to this point:

Adding to Kinetics issues falling behind RB they then released a new hardware and have now released another. The latter one especially seems like a knee jerk reaction to the market conditions to try and combat AirNav.

However each new hardware revision costs R&D and not to mention you need to build a certain amount of units to which you need to sell to make any kind of profit. They took flak from lots in there early false advertising last year as they desperately tried to catch RBs software.

AirNav has had a few disastrous PR attempts due to bad spelling or members of company or even senior members posting items which are not considered sensible.

Now with AirNav going down the beta test route they can if they work hard enough and finally put the bugs in RB software to bed which will leave Kinetic & ML&S in a hard position. The new hardware version hasn’t had the impact they had hoped and with the price being above RB and no word on new software

Cross Roads:

We all know how in this very small market that one person can change the view of a 10 prospective customers which just a post let alone a review. If this was against a multinational company it’s not a big deal as that’s a low percentage but in this market it’s a high price to pay. (Actually an article on BBC about fake online reviews)

I think we have now reached a crossroad position. I do believe like other dealers who the vast majority of have had very good feedback of AirNav that certain rogue elements have appeared which are probably fuelled by ML&S or Kinetic to try and win back some customers. ML&S has again been caught recently spreading information to dealers that RB does not show live data trying to undermine it.

AirNav has suffered some attacks on there forum which directly relate to deliberate attempts to damage there rep. I am not talking about posts saying my RB is not working can you help but deliberate attempts to highlight certain posts in there forum and certain bogs being started. AirNav hasn’t helped it self either in some forum posts but its certainly having to make a distinction now of whether the person posting on there forum is a prospective or current customers or someone looking to cause damage.

I firmly believe that once again dodgy tactics are at play now as one company struggles to keep its place. I think from 6 months from now the story might end up with either one starting to leave the scene or one imploding by the pressure from these elements.

Dealership:

You may ask why a dealer is so interested in all of this. On a £500 piece of kit dealers can make a nice amount of commission not to mention the various antenna, cables etc which might come along. There is a lot at state and as Business is a dog eat dog world especially in these times, customers need to be aware and read the hateful posts of either side with a pinch of salt.

Overall:

Overall I think customers and members of these forums need to remember these companies are not multinationals not even close. They are both in a tight position due to the recession and even though we think we can do better believe me running a business is not easy and in this environment it’s hard.
Some of this infighting on these forums it’s very petty, it’s like as if some of them want to bring down the company.

Anyway I hope this insight from a dealers view has been helpful and shows some of thinking behind the two companies and maybe tactics to come.

Selling both I fear for Kinetic at the moment as person walking into a shop and being shown both products would only choose SBS if they have a specific requirement such as Ethernet included. I wonder if AirNav come with a new box with that whether Kinetic will have any chance left."

CoastGuardJon

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 09:57:34 PM »
Interesting market analysis posted by an AirNav RadarBox dealer on another forum that explains why RadarBox has now a huge market share and why we continue to work to develop new features and additions to RadarBox.

I'll bet it's not there very long!    In fact, where is it now?
ANRB :  AOR AR8000 : Icom R-7000 : Icom IC-R9000 : JRC NRD-545 : OptoElectronics Digital Scout and OptoLinx Interface; Realistic Pro-2005 : UBC 800XLT - listed in alphabetical order, not cost, preference, performance or entertainment value!

tarbat

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 10:02:25 PM »

DaveReid

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 10:50:23 PM »
It was deleted by the moderators

The reason given was that the poster "refused to substantiate his claim to be a dealer".

Does anyone know what that's all about ?
This post has been scanned for any traces of negativity, bias, sarcasm and general anti-social behaviour

AirNav Development

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 10:54:47 PM »
We don't know anything about the poster. Even if he was not a dealer (which we believe he is taking in account the deep knowledge of this market), would it justify the post to be deleted?

At least the "moderators" of that forum claim that it is "independent".

Taking in account that they:
- Don't accept AirNav Systems advertising;
- That the site runs a permanent H24 advertising on SBS-1;
- That the moderators are top posters on the SBS-1 forum;
- That ML&S Chris is active in posting messages on that forum;
- That the forum owner claims ML&S pays them "big money" for them to maintain the site and that at the same time ML&S reports they "don't support it";

We believe it is widely understood by the community what this game is all about.

Topic below:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=2984.0
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 11:49:29 PM by AirNav Development »

Fenris

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 10:57:49 PM »
Dave: we don't know anything about the poster. Even if he was not a dealer (which we believe he is taking in account the deep knowledge of this market), would it justify the post to be deleted?

Well it's up to the forum provider and moderators to decide what they want to be displayed. The comments may be true, and the poster may be a dealer, but we don't know for sure.

Interesting to read it here though, it provides food for thought.

AirNav Development

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 11:01:34 PM »
To keep the conversation on-topic, let's focus on the following:

"We don't know anything about the poster. Even if he was not a dealer (which we believe he is taking in account the deep knowledge of this market), would it justify the post to be deleted?"

radarspotter10

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 11:31:36 PM »
It was deleted by the moderators

The reason given was that the poster "refused to substantiate his claim to be a dealer".

Does anyone know what that's all about ?

dave.
i think i will sit this one out:lol,
but as i said before it was deleted on the other forum, it was a good post and a good insight into whats happening, i am still lost as to why the moderators deleted the post.
from pat
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 11:47:55 PM by radarspotter10 »

QF1

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 12:19:49 AM »

Well I for one hope that both companies survive the GFC as they both offer something different, which is why quite a few of us have (at least) one of each product.

There are still advantages/disadvantages with both products and both companies and both have provided great products where previously there was nothing on offer.  I think a lot of criticism comes down obviously to personal experience and it is difficult at times to be completely objective.

In my part of the world, "Down Under" I would have to say that the SBS is rather more popular than the RB, but I also realise that this is not the same in other parts of the world, which is why I use the RB network, which is fantastic, especially with new Beta version of software.  Now if only my RB had great reception (but that is another story) :-)

Cheers
Mark

FlyOverMe

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 01:19:03 AM »
So the poster is anonymous and it doesn't matter! The analysis of the text says it's a dealer. Hmmmm

AirNav Development

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 01:29:34 AM »
We have almost 80 dealers and we don't know who created the above post.
What we know is that soon after it was posted the moderators deleted it with any any proof of their allegations.

This post is a market analysis and was posted on an "independent forum". What is happening behind the scenes at that forum is what matters. It is strange...

FlyOverMe

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 01:36:17 AM »
So you are happy to post this poster who claims to be a dealer of both boxes. Ok I admit it was me!

FlyOverMe

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 01:40:40 AM »
I spoofed the IP address :)

radarspotter10

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 08:21:09 AM »

hi flymeover.
i think it hit a nerve, that's why it was deleted, mybe chrisg0wtz from martin lynch did not like it, now go back to the other forum and stop playing childish games here.
from pat

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Re: RadarBox - Interesting Dealer Market Analysis
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 09:00:28 AM »
This post is a market analysis and was posted on an "independent forum". What is happening behind the scenes at that forum is what matters. It is strange...

OK AirNav, time to play the game fairly.

Do I have your permission to post here the full, unexpurgated exchange of emails from the CEO AirNav and Sales Director of Waters & Stanton to myself and Radarspotters?  Then readers can make up their own minds?

Somehow I don't think you'll agree?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:40:41 AM by AirNav Development »