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Author Topic: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?  (Read 9109 times)

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petervee

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Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« on: September 13, 2008, 08:40:05 AM »
All,

can someone tell me why is local recording (without any network data on the screen - network icon is red) delayed by 5 minutes? Can this be turned off? How?

Thanks,
Peter

Allocator

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2008, 08:58:10 AM »
All,

can someone tell me why is local recording (without any network data on the screen - network icon is red) delayed by 5 minutes? Can this be turned off? How?

Thanks,
Peter


If live traffic recording was not delayed, it would be possible to read the record file in real time and then share this with other users to give a live display.  This is exactly how the SBS-1 record file is hacked and used with PlanePlotter to display traffic to other users.

This is technically bordering on the illegal.  Although there is no "law" that says that 5 minute delayed data is OK, this is the accepted standard.  If AirNav were to allow people access to the live data by hacking the record file, then they would be putting themselves in a dubious position.

The same applied to the data coming out of ports 7879 and 30003 and to the FTP upload - all delayed by 5 minutes for security reasons.

Theo

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 01:29:16 PM »

Quote

  This is exactly how the SBS-1 record file is hacked and used with PlanePlotter to display traffic to other users.




Is this a written law, because searching for it in the dutch lawbook i can't find any article about this.
Personly i think it has more to do to prevent just what is going on with the sbs box.
It is strange that when you buy the device you can see realtime and if you wan to share it realtime suddenly its illegal.

BTW. is planeplotter a illegal program then?

DaveReid

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 01:52:43 PM »
Is this a written law, because searching for it in the dutch lawbook i can't find any article about this.

No - it's simply a de facto, internationally accepted convention.

Quote
Personly i think it has more to do to prevent just what is going on with the sbs box.

???

Quote
It is strange that when you buy the device you can see realtime and if you wan to share it realtime suddenly its illegal.

No, it's not illegal (see above), just unwise.

Quote
BTW. is planeplotter a illegal program then?

Probably  :-)
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Fenris

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 02:05:18 PM »

Quote

  This is exactly how the SBS-1 record file is hacked and used with PlanePlotter to display traffic to other users.




Is this a written law, because searching for it in the dutch lawbook i can't find any article about this.
Personly i think it has more to do to prevent just what is going on with the sbs box.
It is strange that when you buy the device you can see realtime and if you wan to share it realtime suddenly its illegal.

BTW. is planeplotter a illegal program then?

This is all a very grey area, in the UK none of these services allow unlicensed reception but the authorities generally do not take action provided that it is only enthusiasts that listen or watch.

The situation in the Netherlands is probably different, with open access to Schiphol ATC on liveatc.net allowed it probably means the law does not prohibit things in the same way.

Of course, some of us think that the whole idea of trying to limit access to information is doomed to fail eventually but in the meantime don't want to lose access to what we have however crazy the current rules are.

Theo

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2009, 02:30:51 PM »


Quote
Personly i think it has more to do to prevent just what is going on with the sbs box.

Quote
???

if there is no delay people make use of it by passing on realtime data to eachother just as with the SBS (network).
So this gives me the idea that it has more to do with protecting there product (wich is fine) but why not say it then, rather then say its illegal (or could be).
for all i know if there is no article in the law for it you can't break it and therefore it can't be illegal, but as you say each country have different laws and different rules

AirNav Development

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 02:54:10 PM »
The 5 minute delay is there due to security reasons. AirNav Systems is a responsible company and it is commonly accepted worldwide that a 5 minute delay would not impose any security risks on sharing flight data. This delay is not imposed for commercial reasons at all.

It is illegal for our competition not to correct the problem on their application that allows users to get real-time data using a "hacked" product. We have contacted them about this and received no reply.

We are still considering legal action against them on this field. We believe that they cannot correct the problem as their software development capabilities are totally limited now (that's why you haven't seen any really new version of their software for the last 3 years).

Fenris

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 03:47:13 PM »

It is illegal for our competition not to correct the problem on their application that allows users to get real-time data using a "hacked" product. We have contacted them about this and received no reply.


I suppose it depends on how this is done. If someone patches the executable then you could argue that it is the person doing that patching that is liable.

Equally someone could examine how your software works and mount a similar attack against it. It would not be your fault if you have taken reasonable precautions against such an attack.

I know you don't want to discuss this at length and I'm not asking you to do so, but I've always been of the opinion that the security risks, if there are any, are all at the local usage end of flight tracking. The best threat I can think of involves some sort of coordinated action in different locations, but even then two people with local tracking linked by an instant messaging application can achieve similar aims.

Deadcalm

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2009, 04:45:09 PM »
"...We are still considering legal action against them on this field..."

For what, exactly?  Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Either this 5 minute delay is an internationally legal requirement, or it's not.

If the powers that be deemed our hobby as a security risk, they'd pretty soon say so and ban any use of it at all.  Five minutes either way ain't gonna make any difference.  It seems nonsensical to me that traffic received over a network is considered more of a risk than something received live, locally - the reverse is more logically true. Anyway, the simplest expedient for the authorities would be to encrypt ALL ADS-B transmissions and modify legal equipment accordingly, in which case we'd all be b*ggered.

And it's quite simple to re-transmit live traffic now, for the benefit of others, simply by utilising third party recording software (as is the case in Sao Paulo).

I'd be in favour of getting everything we can, while we can - once the precedent is established it would be far harder to back pedal.

DC
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 04:49:12 PM by Deadcalm »
Go around, I say again go around...

DaveReid

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 04:49:23 PM »
It is illegal for our competition not to correct the problem on their application that allows users to get real-time data using a "hacked" product. We have contacted them about this and received no reply.

We are still considering legal action against them on this field.

Hmmm.  I'd be fascinated to know how a software developer can be held liable for the unauthorised actions of a third-party hacking into their product.  If that were the case, the world and his wife would be continually suing Microsoft ...

And in this particular case, I think people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

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Allocator

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2009, 05:41:19 PM »
I'd be in favour of getting everything we can, while we can - once the precedent is established it would be far harder to back pedal.
DC

So what are you saying DC, we push our luck by ignoring an "accepted standard" of a 5 minute delay and wait until what we are doing is made illegal?  Doesn't sound like a sound plan to me.  I know that when I'm listening to an airband radio at at airport, I am technically conducting an illegal act as I have no right to listen to such transmissions.  Of course, it isn't illegal to sell airband radios.  Now, if it was decreed that is was illegal to follow aircraft by use of an ADS-B receiver, would it still be legal to sell RadarBox/SBS-1 kit? How is this going to help?

The UK works on case law.  Once a case is put to court and an act is judged illegal, then it's law and we're all stuffed.

If you want to read some interesting threads regarding the sharing of live ADS-B data, go to the Kinetic forum and do a search for MapModeS and look back about 2 and a half years.  I wasn't the only person to be directly threatened by DG of Kinetic and told to expect a knock at the door from "the authorities" - and this was only whist discussing using PlanePlotter with the SBS-1 - ouch!

Allocator

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2009, 05:49:11 PM »
In fact, here's a good thread on the "other" forum - this was following the launch of the OpenATC website!

http://www.kinetic-avionics.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2201&start=0

KineticDavid is the CEO of Kinetic Avionics.  Note the date, 30th August 2006 and onwards.

Chaps, this whole live data network issue is old news.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 05:53:45 PM by Allocator »

viking9

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 06:49:28 PM »
I personally cannot see what practical security is afforded by a 5 minute delay on data from another sharer. If someone of ill-intent wishes to use data then surely it's the live data that they would be using.

Or to put it another way; what possible use would real time data from one area of the planet be to someone of ill-intent in another area?
Tom
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besty

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 06:57:33 PM »
It's delayed by 5 minutes, they won't change it so why ask? seems a waste of time discussing it to me.

Stuart

DaveReid

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Re: Why is recording of local data delayed by 5 minutes?
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 07:08:37 PM »
It's delayed by 5 minutes, they won't change it so why ask? seems a waste of time discussing it to me.

Quite so.

Everything to be said on this subject has already been said ad nauseam.
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