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Author Topic: Route info sharing  (Read 45722 times)

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testmonkey

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Route info sharing
« on: August 29, 2008, 10:36:58 PM »
Is anyone out there interested in using this thread to upload and share route information. I'm thinking along the lines of people saying which airline they are going to try and compile missing route information for so we don't duplicate each others work and then posting once they've got what they can. It's going to be tricky in many cases and those that want to take part or download will have to accept that there may be errors but not sure what we can do about that.

As an example I'm currently trying to compile as many route details as possible for Thomas Cook UK (TCX) flights but it's a hard task finding the data and even more difficult to verify it but not sure what other avenue we have for filling in the blanks so to speak.

Once I'm done I'll be happy to post for others to add to their own routes table with the obvious disclaimer that it may not be 100% accurate. Not ideal I know but due to the lack of information available in some cases if we exclude every route we can't confirm as 100% accurate we'll still be left with a lot of missing routes.

Format wise it would be good if we all stuck to a consistent layout so I would suggest all routes are uploaded as csv files with the columns FN, NO, ND, NV set as a header record. Might be good if we stick to some sort of naming convention as well so possibly [flight code]_[forum member]_[version number] so for above the first upload would be TCX_testmonkey_v1.csv. Would also be useful if all subsequent versions were complete replacements not just additions for ease of management.

Any thoughts?
testmonkey
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RB - MVT9000 - UBC30XLT (for acars)

tarbat

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2008, 07:38:30 AM »
Is there a particular problem with Thomas Cook flights then?  I've gathered around 170+ TCX routes using my regular method of using Planeplotter and FD6 to get routes from FlyteCom, FlightStats, and FlightAware.  CSV attached.

As a general comment, part of the problem is that routes change so frequently that anything posted could be out of date within a few weeks.  For routes to be correct you need to be checking them frequently.

I'm happy that we all post routes though.  For info, I've also attached the 2000+ routes I've added over the last couple of weeks for flights over Scotland and northern England - again, derived using PP/FD6.  Many are new routes, but others replace erroneous routes already in the routes table.

Suggest we include all the fields in the routes table.  Including the CH field will give people an indication of how "stale" the route information is.

Deadcalm

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2008, 07:42:30 AM »
Now, THAT'S a good idea in principle.  I've been trying to do something similar with Ryanair flights - I've got a vast list, but actually trying to pin down the alphanumeric callsigns to specific routes is a nightmare.  One way of achieving this is with guesswork - watching traffic passing me between Ryanair serviced airports in the UK and those in France and Spain, and trying to discover the likely destinations is fun but time consuming.  I use all the arrival/departure pages on the relevant airport sites and try to marry up the times.  I expect I'll soon get tired of that.  My wife thinks I'm mad, but has assisted by producing an Access database...

DC
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tarbat

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 07:54:10 AM »
DC, I've added 141 Ryanair routes if you're interested.  They're all in the tarbat.csv attachment in my previous post.  If you're primarily interest in flights in your own area, then I'd recommend using Planeplotter and FD6 to compile a list automatically.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 08:25:59 AM by tarbat »

tarbat

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 08:34:50 AM »
A couple of you have asked how to import routes into ANRB.  The approach I use is with SQLite Maestro:
1. Open the routes table (in NavData.db3)
2. Use the import wizard
3. Select the csv file
4. Select all the fields
5. Select FN as the primary key
6. Select the "Update or Insert" option
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 08:39:36 AM by tarbat »

Deadcalm

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2008, 09:31:53 AM »
Thanks Tarbat, I'll download and take a look.

DC
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testmonkey

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 09:58:30 AM »
Is there a particular problem with Thomas Cook flights then?  I've gathered around 170+ TCX routes using my regular method of using Planeplotter and FD6 to get routes from FlyteCom, FlightStats, and FlightAware.  CSV attached.

As a general comment, part of the problem is that routes change so frequently that anything posted could be out of date within a few weeks.  For routes to be correct you need to be checking them frequently.

.......

Suggest we include all the fields in the routes table.  Including the CH field will give people an indication of how "stale" the route information is.

Hi tarbat,

No real problem with TCX, I use FlyteComm to lookup 'live' flights and they're all on there it was mainly bought about by the upgrade to RB2009 as AirNav seem to be lacking most TCX flights in the data they're obtaining. It became apparent looking at the auto populated route details that there are specific airlines that they don't have much info on, SN Brussels being another example.

In terms of flight tracking, untl I got my RB a few weeks ago for me it was limited to my scanner and looking out of the window :) Luckily I live under the flight paths for both Birmingham and Coventry so get to see a far bit cracking off. Because I take my RB to various localities I'd like to have my tables as populated as possible for offline use.

I agree that flight routes change often and it really is going to be a pain to keep everything up to date until such time (if ever) that ALL such things become easily obtainable through the web. In terms of airlines like TCX it shouldn't be quite so bad as the routes should be pretty much set for each season. I know they still use the same codes for routes I flew with them a few years back.

The sharing idea really came about as it was apparent from the outset that a single person could never keep up on their own. I suppose I should look into things like Planeplotter and FD6. My problem is that I'd like to be able to go to the other end of the country and still have route information for flights that I'd never pick up at home via my RB. I have put a suggestion forward to AirNav that once the network route population is up and running properly they could consider introducing a change in the next software version that allows users to utilise that information to populate their local routes table. Obviously this would have to be a local process as there's no way we could all be hammering the server. My idea is to utilise a process whereby if a user clicks on a flight in the Network Flights list the route information already downloaded for that flight is checked against the local routes table and added / updated if necesary. I haven't had any reply to the suggestion yet though.

I terms of adding the CH field to the shared info I had decided to exclude it on the basis that route information may not be 100% correct. Without it each person's RB would try to update the information the first time the flight was seen and would then correct any errors that may have been distributed (if AirNav had the data of course). I can see that it would be useful for people to see when that route had been compiled though and they don't have to import that field to their table if they dont wish.

Thanks for the donwloads Tarbat. Once I've finished my TCX list I'll upload it - stands at about 250 routes so far.

Deadcalm - my wife thinks I'm mad as well. If I spend too long doing this I'll have a nicely populated routes table but no marriage LOL :)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 10:00:53 AM by testmonkey »
testmonkey
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tarbat

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2008, 12:58:35 PM »
Maybe Airnav support could also use the routes posted here to add to their central database of routes.

testmonkey

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 01:58:29 PM »
I think they'll probably decline unless we can guarantee 100% accuracy though no reason why someone can't indicate the level of accuracy as they know it for each upload and they could take their pick based on that.
testmonkey
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AirNav Support

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2008, 02:34:43 PM »
While the accuracy is important, its more to do with would it be updated continuously through a dynamic feed so you won't have out of date routes etc.

We are discussing the different ideas internally.
Contact Customer/Technical support via:
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[email protected]

testmonkey

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2008, 03:03:20 PM »
We are discussing the different ideas internally.

Great stuff, thanks for the feedback. Be interesting to see which way it develops.
testmonkey
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John Racars

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 11:34:45 AM »
Hi All,

Verry good idea this Route info sharing. Maybe I can attribute with many routes I added the last time.

PE: KLM (ICAO-callsigns included), TRA(summer 2009).

Please let me know of you are interested in and I will see what I can do.
Best Regards from the Netherlands, John Racars
13 NM East of EHAM
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ANRB:
Version: 3D - 5.00.072
Antenna: outside WiMo GP-1090 (with ECOFLEX 10 cableconnection)
PC: Windows 7 SP 1 - 64 bit
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RadarBox24 station: EHAM4

DaveReid

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 01:27:56 PM »
I think they'll probably decline unless we can guarantee 100% accuracy though no reason why someone can't indicate the level of accuracy as they know it for each upload and they could take their pick based on that.

It's relatively easy, where you have an ADS-B aircraft, to do a reasonableness check on the route that comes back from any of the flight lookup services. 

That's the approach I've taken with my own FlightRouteLookup server at http://www.flightroutelookup.com/FlightRoute/ - when a client application posts a query with a flight number, the query includes the ADS-B lat/lon, where available, and that gets used to check that the flight route being returned is a feasible one given the location of the aircraft.  It's not foolproof, but it does serve to highlight where a routing has changed for a given flight number.

HTH
Dave
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tarbat

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 01:41:20 PM »
Dave, maybe Airnav can do a deal with you to use your flightroute service, in the same way that the new FD7 beta does.

John Racars

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Re: Route info sharing
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 05:32:17 PM »
A couple of you have asked how to import routes into ANRB.  The approach I use is with SQLite Maestro

Hi Tarbat,

Thank you for that tip!

Today I downloaded SQLite aswell and now I am experimenting with my route database I added with verry much flightinfo in the period version 1.5 was in use. Now I will try to copy the routedatabase from version 1.5 into 2.0 so that all the routeinformation from KLM, WZZ, BAW etc. will be displayed as I added this in the database. At this moment I see, unfortunately, verry much flights with incorrect or without flightinformation whereof I sure the correct information in my "1.5" routedatabase think to have..

But, in general, the version 2.0 looks to work verry well and stable. It is running the whole day by me until sofar without any problem.

I have made a backup from the routedatabase from version 1.5.

Do you, or any other member of this forum, have experience with this? If so, some help or more tips will be welcome.

Thanks in advance!
Best Regards from the Netherlands, John Racars
13 NM East of EHAM
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ANRB:
Version: 3D - 5.00.072
Antenna: outside WiMo GP-1090 (with ECOFLEX 10 cableconnection)
PC: Windows 7 SP 1 - 64 bit
-
RadarBox24 station: EHAM4