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Author Topic: Executive jet recording  (Read 9364 times)

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munroav

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Executive jet recording
« on: June 10, 2008, 09:20:42 AM »
I am having trouble getting any return on my filters from executive jets. I sell executive jets and wish to keep track of what is where. Looking at Farnborough, EGLF, there are two or three a/c that I would like to keep tabs on. Having listed them by registration and knowing that they have recently got airborn from FAB nothing shows up. I do not have ACARS, would this cure the problem and why, please, do these a/c not show up when I search for them.

Protzenalp

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 09:27:55 AM »
For the most part executive jets do not transmit position information.

nortonbeak

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 09:28:53 AM »
Unfortunately position information is not regularly included in the ACARS data. Sometimes it is present, sometimes not. Using ACARS is not the most reliable method of tracking aircraft positions.

munroav

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 09:38:02 AM »
Thanks guys for your help.

Don't understand how an executive jet, on airways, does not report its position. Just like any airliner. What am I missing please. Since a/c are a 125-800 and an American registered F900 Ex Easy, I would have thought that the same system for airliners would have picked up the executive a/c. I am getting very good airline returns.

Allocator

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 09:48:51 AM »
A executive jet on airways is not required to "report its position" as it will be controlled using primary and/or secondary (Mode 3) radar - SSR.

The aircraft Mode S box is an updated version of Mode 3 SSR that has additional functions - one of these is the ability to transmit GPS position reports.  However, there is no requirement to transmit this position information as it will not be used to control the aircraft.

In years to come, conventional radar my cease to be used for ATC services, with Mode S and associated position reports being used instead.

There is a good description of how ATC works here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control

And this covers primary radar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

And SSR here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_radar

« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 09:52:37 AM by Allocator »

munroav

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 09:57:20 AM »
Hi,

Thanks for the reply. Sorry to take so long getting back to you. Any a/c on airways has to report its position. This may be by radio or, more likly, via mode S tdr. Why does an airliner show its position and not an executive a/c.

As an ex airline pilot and CAA examiner I do have some idea of what is required on airways. Sorry if I have missed the point but executive jets report just the same way as any other a/c on airways. Why do I not see them? Something is wrong. Either I have not set up my system correctly or a filter is wrongly installed.

With kind regards

Allocator

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 10:41:21 AM »
Monroav,

As an ex  pilot/examiner, you have a good understanding of how things work, so I'm not trying to teach you to "suck eggs" here, but I'll keep it simple so others can follow it :-)

- For ATC to control an aircraft, the aircraft needs a radio - nothing else

- ATC use primary radar to see aircraft.  Radar sends out a signal, it's reflected off the aircraft back to the radar receiver and the controller sees a "blip" on the radar.  No aircraft label, just a dot.

- ATC now dictate that to fly in controlled airspace, the aircraft must have a Secondary Radar (SSR) transponder.  New bit of kit strapped to the ATC radar antenna that sends out a "request information" signal to the transponder in the aircraft.  The transponder sends back a 4 digit code between 0000 and 7777.

- The aircraft transponders develop and are connected to the altimeter so that they send the altitude too.

- Computer at ATC centre recognises aircraft code and converts it to a callsign on the radar screen.  Altitude is also displayed as a flight level, and other information from the ATC computer can be displayed too.

Simplifying things greatly, that is where we are today.  You can control using primary radar and just see a blip on the screen (very frightening!) or with the primary blip and the Secondary label (much, much better) or with Secondary alone.  The problem controlling with Secondary radar alone, is that it only show aircraft with a transponder, so small aircraft without a transponder and aircraft with an electrical failure will not show up on the controllers display at all - not good!

SSR boxes are developed and get cleverer.  They don't need that "request information" signal from the ground any more, as they regularly transmit the information without being asked.  They still send out the 0000 to 7777 code and altitude, but they can also send additional information such as speed, rate of climb and descent etc.  These new SSR transponders are Mode S transponders and they fitted as the new "standard" fit to aircraft.

With the capabilities of the new Mode S box, it becomes clear that it could be possible to control an aircraft without any ground "radar" stations, so a new standard - ADS-B - is decided upon.  Loads more data capability now, so the Mode S ADS-B box is linked to the GPS in the aircraft and data uplinks are made available so the controller can send instructions to the pilot without actually transmitting on the radio.  This is the future!

However, you don't need a Mode S transponder and aircraft operators are not required to fit them.  Almost all new public transport aircraft will be almost certainly be fitted with them, but as all you need to be legal is the old box that sends out the 4 digit code and the altitude, why bother upgrading an old aircraft?

So, an executive jet will report its position in the following way:

- By radio - only acceptable when receiving a non-radar procedural service

- By being detected by primary radar - the "blip" on the controllers screen

- Be being detected by secondary (SSR) radar - a 4 digit code and altitude information.

RadarBox only detects the Mode S transmissions from aircraft, so without a Mode S box, it's not going to show in the aircraft list or on the map.  If the executive jet has an early Mode S transponder, then it will show up in the RadarBox aircraft list only.

If the executive jet has a newer full ADS-B Mode S transponder, then it will show up in the RadarBox aircraft list and on the map unless it is set not to transmit a position, in which case it will only show up in the list.

So, back to your original question, why don't executive jets show on the map?  Because operator chooses not to transmit the position information in order to provide a degree of confidentiality to their clients.  This doesn't affect ATC one little bit, as they are using primary and secondary radar to control the aircraft, not the additional ADS-B information available from the latest Mode S boxes.

Hope this helps

Allocator


AirNav Support

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2008, 10:43:31 AM »
munroav,

Executive a/c have Mode-S transponders but not the extended squitter which is ADS-B (which contains the position information) as its not required at the moment. You need to have Mode-S in the London TMA but not the extended squitter.

Executive a/c such as challengers also don't have a authorised ADS-B transponder yet and hence they are only appear as Mode-S in RadarBox and are not shown on the map.
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Paulc

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2008, 10:56:48 AM »
I have had the odd exec jet show on the map as well as the flight list - a couple of G550's and a CL604.

AirNav Support

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2008, 11:01:42 AM »
Thats good to hear, they are catching up slowly.
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Roadrunner

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Re: Executive jet recording
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2008, 06:06:29 PM »
I have had 4 or 5 GLF4's and GLF5's showing with full ADS-B in the last day or so but that is only a very very small number of those going into Luton that actually show up on the map, although they all appear in the list.