AirNav Systems Forum

AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: acars45 on June 22, 2015, 06:50:42 PM

Title: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 22, 2015, 06:50:42 PM
Good evening I need some advice I run radarbox from my location near orpington kent
I run a out door antenna. Not on my roof currently I'm getting 110-130 range heading towards France
I'm thinking about getting a new antenna and put on the roof
With my current range would my range increase ?
Also I seem to get aircraft going towards south but never North or west
Also what a antenna would be good to by
And would my range increase to 200 miles etc
Look forward to your replies
Paul in kent
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on June 22, 2015, 07:57:14 PM
There must be something stopping you getting anything north or west, what is the topography around you which is stopping you seeing anything in that direction.  Where is you current antenna sited and would putting it on the roof overcome what is limiting your view just now ,I guess it will be a part of your building.  The antenna/box works with line of site. if there is something in the way between the antenna and the aircraft it wont pick it up.

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 22, 2015, 08:22:43 PM
Thank you Alan I'm getting in into Jersey france no problem  hopefully when I get my new aieral mounted on the roof I should get better range. What sort of ranges would I get by putting
The aieral on the roof
Paul
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on June 23, 2015, 07:24:15 AM
I cant state with any certainty Paul but you should get better range with it on the roof.  The maximum range you will get will be determined by among other things your antenna, the cable you are using and the altitude of the aircraft.

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 23, 2015, 11:04:49 AM
Any advice on what aieral to buy and cable
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on June 23, 2015, 11:15:26 AM
It depends on your budget Paul.
I go for what I think is best and use a DPD antenna with Westflex W103 cable. Others may have other ideas.

http://www.dpdproductions.com/ and http://www.whwestlake.co.uk/ and they also do a 1m tail for connecting to the box.  Whatever make you buy make sure it is fitted with good connectors of the right size and type.

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 23, 2015, 04:52:34 PM
Thank you so much for this
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CoastGuardJon on June 23, 2015, 06:25:38 PM
Hi Paul,
With just the standard supplied little mag-mount, (mounted on a redundant Peugeot brake disc!) albeit on top cliffs (200', 65m) at Mullion Cove, I was regularly getting up to 350NM (A/C at FL 400) distance. and if I can get my wife's redundant lap-top working, I'll be keeping that on 24/7/365 feeding to the network.   CGJon
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: MrParanoia on June 23, 2015, 07:27:07 PM
My range increased quite significantly in certain directions after installing an external antenna on the roof 3 weekends back - I managed to get it on the very top of the pole above the tv antennas and am very pleased with the results.

Flight count has also increased by at least 50%, I'm currently looking at 54 flights whereas I used to get less than 30 at this time of day.  I had a quick peep before work a few mornings back and had 134 flights!!

Antenna is the BBA-1090 from TMRF.co.uk (http://TMRF.co.uk)
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 26, 2015, 05:26:56 AM
Thank you for all this  great information I will be getting my out antenna very soon
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 27, 2015, 05:34:04 AM
Last question do you know any uk supplies who supply ADS out door aierals for my radar box look forward to your reply Paul in kent
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: MrParanoia on June 27, 2015, 07:40:03 AM
Last question do you know any uk supplies who supply ADS out door aierals for my radar box look forward to your reply Paul in kent

TMRF.co.uk (http://TMRF.co.uk)
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CYYZGUY on June 28, 2015, 07:24:31 PM
Here is an example of my range with a DPD 1090Mhz ADS-B antenna

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3855/19245943521_745e58ae0b_o.gif) (https://flic.kr/p/vjGuur)AirNav RadarBox 3D - 5.00.071 Shot at 20150628 1913 UTC (https://flic.kr/p/vjGuur) by CYYZGUY (https://www.flickr.com/photos/86721442@N07/), on Flickr

With maximum propagation rings.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/260/19246014001_a690fdd8dc_o.gif) (https://flic.kr/p/vjGRrB)AirNav RadarBox 3D - 5.00.071 Shot at 20150628 1918 UTC (https://flic.kr/p/vjGRrB) by CYYZGUY (https://www.flickr.com/photos/86721442@N07/), on Flickr

And antenna, on the right.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8754/17198433979_876682f05c_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/scLteM)DSC_0122 (https://flic.kr/p/scLteM) by CYYZGUY (https://www.flickr.com/photos/86721442@N07/), on Flickr

Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 29, 2015, 06:43:06 AM
What sort of ranges are you getting in miles. And thank you for the brill pics
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 29, 2015, 09:19:51 AM
Also can ADS increase in range when there is lift in the weather conditions ?
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CYYZGUY on June 29, 2015, 11:18:51 AM
Hello Acars, ADS-B is line of sight, so weather conditions have very little effect.

You can see in the diagram above, I am getting around 250Nm in all directions from the propagation rings.
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 29, 2015, 04:54:35 PM
I have a piece of software on the left it says distance 152.4 on the right its saying 204.3 NM trk
What does that mean?
Look forward to your reply
Paul
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 29, 2015, 04:59:41 PM
I have ordered my new out door antenna and west flex cable
 a company is coming on Monday to put it in my roof
At the monument from my short out door antenna I'm getting 150-162 with the new one see pics attached what range should I get
Paul
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CYYZGUY on June 29, 2015, 05:17:23 PM
You should do well with that setup.  I cannot stress enough to waterproof your connections.  It makes the world of difference with your signal.  First I used a good quality electrical tape around the connections, then I covered it with "Liquid electrical tape" to make a rubberized tight seal so no water can get in.

regards,

Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 29, 2015, 05:49:36 PM
Any ideas what NM track means
Also with the new set up would I exceed 200 miles currently in getting 159-162 on a short outdoor antenna which is on my outside window
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CYYZGUY on June 29, 2015, 05:59:41 PM
There are so many factors that can effect your range....

Surrounding terrain, actual height of antenna.  are you mounting it to a mast, or right to the roof?  It really is a trial and error setup.

Just put it up and post the results...
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 29, 2015, 06:06:44 PM
Question if there is a high pressure system can that affect range like vhf
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CoastGuardJon on June 29, 2015, 09:26:19 PM
Hi Paul, as CYYZGUY says above, make sure the joints are as water-proof as possible, personally I use silicone grease, water hates it.   Get some in every joint, so as the connector is tightened it squeezes out - you know there's no-where for water to get in then.   You can find it on-line easily as electrician's silicone grease usually in 50g tubes, and you can also buy bigger pots of it from some plumbing suppliers.    Remember, we're dealing with micro waves here  frequency of 1090MHz = 27.5cms wavelength.   Purely line of sight 95% of the time, wet trees, buildings and heavy cloud reduce the signal, and unlike frequency of 27MHz = 2 metre wavelength you don't get lifts and skips.    HTH
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: MrParanoia on June 29, 2015, 10:58:40 PM
Any ideas what NM track means
Also with the new set up would I exceed 200 miles currently in getting 159-162 on a short outdoor antenna which is on my outside window

NM is Nautical Miles (1 Nautical Mile = 1.15078 Miles)

I see your patch lead terminates in an N-type connector - you'll need an N-type to SMA adaptor to be able to connect it to your radarbox.
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on June 30, 2015, 04:54:00 PM
So is the real distance from my house the NM track or the miles so for example I'm tracking a aircraft from my house the left says 145.2 distance but the NM track says 195.0 so what I'm asking what distance is the right one
I'm asking so I'm getting a idea of range
Look forward to your reply
Paul
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CoastGuardJon on June 30, 2015, 04:58:45 PM
Hi Paul, here's an example of the silicone grease I was referring to:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-500g-Arctic-Silicone-Grease-Tub-Clear-Paste-50-C-200-C-Lubricant-/231391773460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35e0064314

It's also available in 50g tubes (usually Servisol and can vary in price from £3.50 up to £15 for exactly the same stuff - shop around!) and doesn't affect rubber or plastics the way that mineral oils and greases do.   A thin smear of this on car door rubbers eliminates the door sticking in frosty weather that happens if water is trapped and frozen and it works at any temperature.
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on June 30, 2015, 05:04:22 PM
Paul,

I am confused, what do you mean the left says 145.2 miles. 

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on June 30, 2015, 05:11:08 PM
Hello Paul you may have found an untidy behaviour of ANRB Software:

but first: bothe distances are showing the distance in NM or if you have set te software to miles or kilometres the range in that values.

How it works:

the value in the bottom area were the MSGs/sec are shown is directly showing the distance of each airframe, which is selected on the map. But only as long as you select them on the map.

The distance in Myflight list is the distance of the airframe at the last tracked postion (complete ADS-B message received).

Now the maybe untidy behaviour of the software:
If a new airframes is selected from list (not on map), the distance value at the bottom doesn't change immediately. It changes as soon as a new position is received for the new from list selected airframe.

Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on June 30, 2015, 05:13:02 PM
Hi Alan

if he means what I've understood there is an "untidy"  behaviour in the software.

Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on June 30, 2015, 08:17:36 PM
I understand Ingo but they are both in nautical miles and Paul stated miles and nautical miles so I am wondering if what you have detailed is what he mentions?

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on July 01, 2015, 04:17:19 AM
Thank you with my small outdoor antenna I'm getting a average of 160 miles highest so far 167 miles
With my new out four antenna soon mounted on the roof
Hopefully that should exceed 200
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on July 12, 2015, 06:17:28 AM
Quick question I had my aieral fitted but the cable is to thick I getting a replacement my bnc is attached to my box what is the one attached to my aieral called
Paul
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on July 12, 2015, 07:13:22 AM
Between the antenna and the box you need a 1m tail with SMA at the box end and BNC the other end, cant remember whether its male or female.

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CoastGuardJon on July 12, 2015, 12:36:29 PM
Hi Alan and Paul, the SMA connector on the RB is the "female" part, the connector required for the end of the patch lead is SMA male :
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-sma-crimp-plug-rg58-mm55k
There is also a BNC male to SMA male adaptor available:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/sma-plug-to-bnc-socket-adapter-rs85g
although my personal preference would be to go for a 30/50 cms patch lead with a male SMA on the end - adaptor connectors are fine for VHF/UHF but not so good for SHF signals.
Hope this helps Paul
CGJon
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on July 12, 2015, 01:34:33 PM
Hello Jon,

PLUG = male, JACK/SOCKET = Female
The Radarbox Hardware is carrying the jack/socket (SMA female) and the cable is carrying the plug (SMA male).

The connector sex is defined by connectors contact pin (the center pin).

http://www.amphenolrf.com/connectors/sma.html look for interface dimension graphics.

Paul if you are planning to install a permanent installation -No disconnecting/connecting of the HF-plugs for a long time- it would be a good idea to use completely gold plated connectors / adapters for all inter-connections. The connection thread of the female SMA connector on RB Hardware is gold plated. If you use a nickel plated adapter or male connector it might be neccessary the disconnect / re-connect the parts from time to time for maintaining best electrical contact between the conntectors connection threads.

Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on July 12, 2015, 02:01:08 PM
You will get a 1m patch lead from W H Westlake, just tell him its for Radarbox http://www.whwestlake.co.uk/  It comes ready made up no crimping and is very good quality.

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CoastGuardJon on July 12, 2015, 02:25:29 PM
Hi Paul and Alan,
Ingo is correct, I was looking at "Reverse" polarity  connectors - just goes to show how confusing the terms are, and I'd agree wholeheartedly with the use of gold-plated components.   
Thanks Ingo for the clarification and I've amended my post above to correct.
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CoastGuardJon on July 12, 2015, 02:58:22 PM
Hi Paul, Alan and Ingo,
To further complicate/ confuse the issue, have a look here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)
Jack = male connector not the female socket, which is how I've always known it!
You pays your money, and takes your choice ...........
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CoastGuardJon on July 12, 2015, 03:08:11 PM
Courtesy of WIKI
"In SMA connectors, the terms "male" and "female" refer exclusively to the male center pin and its female sleeve counterpart rather than to the threads that are used to hold the connection in place. The male connector has inside threads while the female connector has outside threads."
Hopefully this clarifies and defines the terms!
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on July 12, 2015, 03:16:14 PM
Me thinks Paul will be mightily confused!!

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: EK01 on July 12, 2015, 07:03:20 PM
Guys,

Can the weather affect the range achieved. It has been 35C+ here for several days and I have been finding that during the day I am not getting much of a range. It is usually around 50 miles then timing out. In the evening, however I am getting around 150 miles before timing out. I have tried different USB leads with no difference and I am reluctant to go up onto the roof to check the connections of my outside antenna for water penetration, etc.
Not being an expert in these things, it just seemed strange that as the sun begins to go down, the reception goes up !

Ian
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on July 15, 2015, 04:51:34 AM
I new Airnav set up is going well I got a super gainer 200 on my roof
With a slim Jim pre amp from my location in
Orpington kent I'm getting to Liverpool in the north Celtic channel of the Devon coast  right down to mid Normandy  I getting between 190-220 miles
Paul
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on July 15, 2015, 04:42:59 PM
Hi Ian, sorry for late reply

For me it sounds, that you have a cantact problem at hot temperatures. It is possible, that the attennuation and contact resistances of your connectors can rise, due to different thermal expansion coefficients of the components in your connection line. Loose connector screw-shells can increase the effect. If low quality connectors (very thin gold plating) are used,  fretting corrosion can occur on the contacts. This can result in a temporary partly or complete loss of connection. If it is fretting, the contact loss will finally get permanent.

I fear that you have to get on the roof to check your connections. But I would use the bottom down method. Means start at the box and end at the antenna.

HTH Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on July 15, 2015, 04:48:08 PM
Just forgot:

If there is extreme dry air and very strong Sunshine (dark blue sky) and a insufficiently grounded antenna pole, a static build up could produce problems too.

Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: EK01 on July 15, 2015, 05:50:10 PM
Cheers Ingo,

Had a friend go up onto the roof and check the connections and all appeared ok. They were completely dry with no sign of rusting or water ingress. As I say, it has been very hot here lately so I guess I will need to wait until it cools down a bit to see if there is any improvement. I even tried another USB cable but that made little difference. Alan is due back out here in September, so if the situation has not improved by then  I can have him climb onto the roof to double check !

Ian
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on July 15, 2015, 06:00:28 PM
Hi Ian,

do you use a preamp or is it a cable connection only setup?

Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: EK01 on July 15, 2015, 06:03:20 PM
Ingo,

It's purely a cable connection only.


Ian
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on July 15, 2015, 06:22:31 PM
Good, sometimes these LNAs (LowNoiseAmplifier)becoming HNAs ("HighNoiseAmplifier") if they are getting too hot.

No water and rust is very good. Unfortunately  fretting problems caused by micro-movements can't be determined by bare eye. Good thing is: in many cases disconnecting and re-connecting solves the problem for some time. In the long term at some  point disconnecting re-connecting won't help anymore for fretting issues. But usually we are talking about years here.

Another point is,  that the problem can be buried at the crimping point of the cable. In this case looking in the cable connectors won't unveil the problem.

Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CYYZGUY on July 16, 2015, 11:14:51 AM
Remember, amplifiers also boost unwanted noise as well.  I have a gut feeling that a lot of radarbox failures could be caused by these amplifiers....

Best investment is in GOOD cable, in North America it's LMR400 low loss.  You don't need an amplifier...when I was living in my apartment, I had a run of 90 Feet LMR 400 cable going from my apartment to the roof, and I had next to no loss, and was getting incredible range.  It's all about the cable, antenna and connections....


Jason
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: EK01 on July 16, 2015, 02:56:31 PM
Guys,

During the day (currently it's 38C here) the RB is picking up the Mode S signals ok but the corresponding ADSB signal isn't being picked up until the aircraft is about 40-50 miles away. It's also timing out around the same distance away. Later on when it's a bit cooler the distances appear greater for picking up the ADSB signals.

Roll on the winter !

Ian
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on July 16, 2015, 03:18:51 PM
Give support a call for their advice

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on July 16, 2015, 05:16:43 PM
Some words about the use of amplifiers:

- If you are planing to use one you should know what you are doing. Amps can cause more damage as giving you a benefit. If you aren't sure ask somebody who knows what he is doing.

- Amps are indeed boosting noise too, but high quality LNAs (quite to awful expensive) are boosting the noise many times less than the signal. That way, signals which were below the receivers threshold without the amplifier get receiveable after the amp is installed.

- The Amp must match up with the signal strenght after the antenna, the used cable type and lenght and the receivers threshold levels. If you are using a high gain antenna (e.g. 10db) at a very short (10m/30ft) ultra low attenuation cable (e.g. LM400 or Ecoflex 15+) the amp will overdrive the receiver. That will result in a decrease of reception range or -worst case- will cause damage to the receiver.

- If you are planning to receive narrow band signals use narrow band amps that are designed to only amplify the frequency of the particular signal. In areas with many other HF transmissions an improvement of signalquality may be achieved by the use of narrowband amplifier as other fequencys get attenuated by these amplifiers.

- Although it might be possible to run one receiver at a high gain antenna with 65ft (or 100ft) of Ecoflex 15+ cable, it might be neccessary to install an amplifier, if you are planing to  run more than one receiver simultaniously at the same antenna (cable).

- Amplifiers usually need DC supply voltages (e.g. 12V DC) that is usually transmitted via the coaxial cable. Make sure, that you use AC/DC power supplies with low EMI. Further it is a good idea to use single soltage supplys with a good current reserve. e.g. If the amp needs 100mA don't use supplies that can delivery 100mA or 250mA, but use supplys that can deliver at least 500mA or better 1000mA. The reason is better life time of the supply and lower rest ripple voltage on the dc voltage.

Regards Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: thechipman0 on July 19, 2015, 09:39:35 PM
Hi guys I am currently getting about 198nm from my location on the tip of thanet in kent. Great over europe but not very good in the north of uk. I have noticed that the areal that is only about 8/10 inches in size is being slightly obscured buy my chimney, hence not getting much in the uk. Am going onto roof tomorrow weather permitting to alter this. will let you know if this increases my range .
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: Runway 31 on July 20, 2015, 12:52:18 AM
Just watch what you are doing up there.

Alan
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on July 25, 2015, 04:43:32 AM
Like the chipman in Thanet  I live in kent near orpington had my aieral put in the roof in getting 233 miles was my best distance  from my location to the North I get Liverpool  west wales Bristol channel  Celtic bay Devon Cornwall  france and Belgium  to the east to the wash and up to hull
I use a slim Jim pre am my average distance for this month has been 209 miles
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on July 25, 2015, 05:18:26 AM
Also on my radar box on my old aieral I was getting about 60 flights
On my screen so far the most I had is 254 at one time
Yesterday Friday I got about 198
Question can the weather affect ranges ?
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on July 25, 2015, 05:29:28 AM
Heavy rain and extreme heat can have direct effects for weak transponders. But these changes in range are marginal.
Extremely heavy waether can cause route diverting, that can reduce or increase the number of airframes passing your range.

Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on July 25, 2015, 06:27:39 AM
Question the ranges in getting 209-233 is that good
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: neroon79 on July 25, 2015, 06:39:16 AM
Yes, as the range @ 1090MHz is almost 100% line of sight. With  absolutely flat terrain the range depends on the hight of the antenna above ground level and the flight level of the received airframe. An antenna mounted on a 2m pole on a two level house could roughly guessed deliver ranges of 240nm by 250 nm. You can calculate the theoretical range if you in love with trigonometry...

Ingo
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: acars45 on July 27, 2015, 01:49:28 PM
Today's it taming and windy in kent in getting about 160 miles
Not the usually 200 +
Title: Re: Airnav radar box ranges and advice
Post by: CoastGuardJon on July 27, 2015, 05:46:11 PM
My previous reply at no.7 above

"Hi Paul,
With just the standard supplied little mag-mount, (mounted on a redundant Peugeot brake disc!) albeit on top cliffs (200', 65m) at Mullion Cove, I was regularly getting up to 350NM (A/C at FL 400) distance. and if I can get my wife's redundant lap-top working, I'll be keeping that on 24/7/365 feeding to the network.   CGJon"

That is with an absolutely clear horizon over the sea (Atlantic Ocean actually!), but I do feel there may be an element of ducting, but certainly not "skip" or "lifts" as experienced at much lower frequencies, what do others think?    I must mention that using the supplied antenna outside on a regular basis is against the advice of the manufacturers, AN and W&S plc., but I modded and made mine as water-resistant as possible - 99.9% for longevity, but could do with just a replacement steel (preferably stainless, so it doesn't corrode at all) element which are not available - only supplied as a complete replacement antenna.