AirNav Systems Forum

AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: AirNav Development on November 06, 2012, 03:24:23 AM

Title: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: AirNav Development on November 06, 2012, 03:24:23 AM: As you may know we are finishing the development of a new version of the RadarBox Windows Software.
We are including a new feature which will enable a fast and easy sync of all the software databases with AirNav Systems server databases (which are updated on a daily basis by a team of database updaters).

We are sharing the way we are crerating the sync feature to get your feedback/opinions/suggestions/approval:
1- New and daily updated database is download from server;
2- User choose which tables to update;
3- Each record on the lcoal tables contain an AUTOUPDATE field: if Y then this record is ovevrwritten with data coming from the server, if AUTOUPDATE=N then the local data for that record willl be kept;

Our question: do you now use the CHTYPE field on the local tables to "tell" the software that the record was updated manually? How can we distinguish manually changed records from automatically changed records at this time (teh AUTOUPDATE field will only be a feature of the new software version).

Let us know you feedback.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: neroon79 on November 06, 2012, 04:04:45 AM: regarding to 1-:

I hope that doesn't mean, that the whole database is automatically downloaded each day. That wpould generate too much traffic. If it means that there is an dailiy updated version that can be manually downloaded from the server, T would consider it a great idea.

about 2- and 3- : sounds good for me.

No good idea for the mentioned problem about the compatibily with old database structur in case of auto-updated and manually updated route records -if it is what your question was about.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: AirNav Development on November 06, 2012, 04:24:28 AM: In simple words how can we know if a record was manually updated by a user?

(the database will only be updated when the user requests it - it is not an automatic feature for now).
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: vena on November 06, 2012, 05:26:28 AM: I think it would be better to update the database manually and autoupdate select by the user. I think it's a good idea to user choice, it needs to easily edit records and aircraft. Sometimes an error occurs.
I look forward to the new version, greetings from the Czech Rep. Vena
Title: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Kenny on November 06, 2012, 10:56:09 AM: Hi,

Just knew the meaning of CHTYPE field. I think I'm ok if we can select which table to auto sync and then use CHTYPE to tell do not update which entry.

regards
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: tarbat on November 06, 2012, 11:22:58 AM: I guess the question is, to anyone who manually updates records in their local NAVDATA database:

When you update a record (aircraft, route, etc.) do you enter anything specific in the record to indicate that you have manually updated it?
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: hugh on November 06, 2012, 05:36:24 PM: When i update my route info i put the date in when i do it 2 and 3 for me

Hugh
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: RNAGG on November 06, 2012, 08:24:53 PM: I am very happy and hoping the new version!

With respect to update the database, my suggestion would be to arrange having a field lines that do not want it to be updated. For example, today in NAVDATA / Aircraft is a field "CO" where we mark with an X the information we want to keep manually. The rows where this field was blank, would be updated automatically. Or if this field does not help, create a field in all tables with this criterion.
I hope I helped.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: tarbat on November 06, 2012, 08:37:56 PM: The v4.04 database will already have a field called AUTOUPDATE, populated with a "Y" by default. If set to "N", the record will NOT be auto-updated.

I think AirNav are trying to establish if people currently use any database fields to indicate a record that has been manually updated. Then, when installing v4.04, they can look at this field to decide whether to put a "Y" or "N" in the AUTOUPDATE field.

So, maybe they should look at the CO (comment?) field to identify manually updated records?
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: RNAGG on November 06, 2012, 08:55:55 PM: In my opinion if there is already a field to indicate whether or not to update the data in each record level, then no need to use the "CO". My suggestion would be if he had not a specific field for this.
If you can put the screen with the fields of the new database would be easier to understand how this auto update function.
Title: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Bell 407 on November 07, 2012, 08:10:28 AM: If version 4.04 comes with an AUTOUPDATE field then why should the default be "Y". Surely it should be "N" to keep the control with the user?

Seems to me to be shades of the default "Upload to network" check box which is ticked by default in the current version whenever the programme is started.

Possibly the view by AirNav should be at an individual user level. Give full control of what options a user wants and let them decide how to use the data made available to them via the network or other sources.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: mikek on November 07, 2012, 08:37:06 AM: I would much rather the default was 'Y'. I don't do much (or lately, any) manual updating and so having to go through every record in the database and change it to 'N' would be a rather big job!

I would only be happy with a default 'N' if there was a way to universally change it to a 'Y' easily...

I guess it's going to be hard to please everyone!
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: AirNav Support on November 07, 2012, 08:43:14 AM: Bell 407,

I think you will find the majority of customers won't be updating there database manually hence having the default setting of Yes to auto update make sense. This majority of customers rarely use the Database to enter details so it would silly to inconvenience them over the customers who enter details manually who will be able to set the flag to N when they enter new aircraft.

Though possibly when upgrading to 4.04 an option to be asked whether you want the database to be set as a blanket Y or No to auto update.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: tarbat on November 07, 2012, 08:43:55 AM: Quote from: Bell 407 on November 07, 2012, 08:10:28 AM
If version 4.04 comes with an AUTOUPDATE field then why should the default be "Y". Surely it should be "N" to keep the control with the user?

Don't worry, you'll still be able to tell Radarbox to NOT autoupdate in Preferences:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7118/8163472632_755f2068a2_o_d.png)

Although from my beta testing experience, with the high quality of updates provided by the database update team, most users will probably want to accept the updates from the database update team. During beta testing, I completely emptied the aircraft table, and since then the 1000+ aircraft details added to my local database have been of high quality, with no need to manually edit any of them.

I think most users will:
1. Turn on autoupdate in Preferences
2. Leave nearly all aircraft records with AUTOUPDATE = "Y"
3. Have a very few aircraft where they make a manual update for some local reason. They will mark these with a "N" to prevent them being autoupdated from the database update team.

You can judge the quality of data from my log of yesterday's flights while beta testing.
See http://www.tarbat.gofreeserve.com/data.htm
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: RNAGG on November 07, 2012, 10:26:46 AM: It really would be much better if we had not that be manually updating the data.
But here in Brazil and I believe should occur in other countries, many aircraft remain long with the code ModeS country of origin. For example, several aircraft maintains the code ModeS U.S. and has a record-Brazilian PR-??? '. In previous automatic updates whenever I lose all the data that took a long time to get upgrade. Therefore, if each record-level option to mark whether or not to auto update would be helpful.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: tarbat on November 07, 2012, 10:30:32 AM: Quote from: RNAGG on November 07, 2012, 10:26:46 AM
It really would be much better if we had not that be manually updating the data.
But here in Brazil and I believe should occur in other countries, many aircraft remain long with the code ModeS country of origin. For example, several aircraft maintains the code ModeS U.S. and has a record-Brazilian PR-??? '. In previous automatic updates whenever I lose all the data that took a long time to get upgrade. Therefore, if each record-level option to mark whether or not to auto update would be helpful.

You'll be able to mark each of these aircraft with AUTOUPATE = N, to retain your manual updates. Although it might be better to inform the database update team if the aircraft details are wrong.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: RNAGG on November 07, 2012, 10:56:49 AM: So will be great!

Yes I am already in contact with the upgrade team to send my data with the updated information of aircraft circulating in Brazilian skies.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Bell 407 on November 07, 2012, 11:20:32 AM: Thanks for the feedback guys. From what I see your arguments make sense now.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: tarbat on November 07, 2012, 12:11:08 PM: Quote from: tarbat on November 07, 2012, 08:43:55 AM
You can judge the quality of data from my log of yesterday's flights while beta testing.
See http://www.tarbat.gofreeserve.com/data.htm

To those who noticed the "RÃ©gional/Air France" on my web-page log, don't worry, this problem with diacritical marks is only a problem on my web-page, not in the Radarbox beta!!

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7271/8163766624_c51681b00c_o_d.png) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarbat/8163766624/sizes/o/in/photostream/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarbat/8163766624/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: vonsmalhausen on November 07, 2012, 06:48:38 PM: sounds really great, personaly i would prefere a automatic update by default, with a option to check it to manualy for the few records where a personal update is nessecary.
but any upgrade of what whe have now, would be mutch apreciated
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: hugh on November 07, 2012, 07:46:16 PM: Good point can the option be to update or not before you start the radar box.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: neroon79 on November 08, 2012, 03:59:20 AM: I don't think, that it is possible to select before starting the radarbox software, but I think it shall be easy to add a selection list, were it is possible to select which section shall be set to auto-up-date and which shall not be set, during the first start-up of RB software.

But I think if an option is added to deselect all entries from auto-up-date, there should also be added the possibility to toggle it back. Of course for each section of Database.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: vena on November 08, 2012, 08:17:58 AM: Hi,
I think the update should be the choice of the user. If at startup or later according to the user's decision. I agree that it should not automatically run. I apologize for my English.
Vena
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: neroon79 on November 08, 2012, 06:33:06 PM: Quote from: romdouk on November 08, 2012, 07:06:53 AM
Quote from: neroon79 on November 08, 2012, 03:59:20 AM
I don't think, that it is possible to select before starting the radarbox software,

Why Not? I would have thought that adding another "button" to the "Welcome" box would be easy enough.
At the moment there are 4 buttons: Start, Account, Cancel and Start Demo.
Change the Start button to "Start with Auto-Update" and add another "Start without Auto-Update"
Seems, that we have a different opinion about before starting. In my oppinion the software is already running if it is comming to the "welcome" box. For you software is running, if Box is already receiving airframes. Ok, this misunderstanding is settled.

But I've to tell you, that I've totally disagree with the way you are proposing.

1. I'm using an option to avoid this box. That way the log-in is performed automatically. Only first start after installation is with welcome box. I don't like the idea to go back to the state were I have to click buttons to get the software to receiving state.

2. I want to have the option to select the section of database that is set to auto-update mode. Airframes yes, Routes No for examples. With your proposal it's only yes or no for whole Database.

3. I don't want to make this decision on each start, but more or less once for all at first start-up.

May be it is the best that on first start-up auto-update is set to off.
And a possibilty to switch on the auto-update function for each section is implemented whether in section preferences or directly at navdatabase editor. First time autoupdate is selected, the Y is added to all entries except the ones were a N was added before autoupdate was ticked first time.

I guess we will not get the perfect way for everyone.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: vonsmalhausen on November 08, 2012, 06:48:11 PM: Quote from: neroon79 on November 08, 2012, 03:59:20 AM
I guess we will not get the perfect way for everyone.

nope, but you're proposal is very close to what i would accept as "nearly" perfect ;-)
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: bratters on November 08, 2012, 08:13:28 PM: Quote from: romdouk on November 08, 2012, 07:59:45 PM

Maybe AirNav will set the Auto-Update to OFF. Not only will it prevent anyone's Databases from being overwritten, but by opting into it, the demand on the AirNav servers would be less.

Quite right romdouk, I'm sure that's the best route.

Internet users should always be required to "opt in", not to "opt out".
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: CoastGuardJon on November 08, 2012, 09:52:00 PM: Quote from: bratters on November 08, 2012, 08:13:28 PM
Internet users should always be required to "opt in", not to "opt out".

Well said John, couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Runway 31 on November 09, 2012, 07:44:49 AM: I disagree, internet users should just go straight in, non internet users should require to opt out.

Alan
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: CoastGuardJon on November 09, 2012, 11:22:58 AM: Hi Alan, without going into detail and starting the well done discussion yet again - you know just what I'm getting at, I'm certain!
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Runway 31 on November 09, 2012, 12:12:26 PM: Yes John I am fully aware of what is meant but like yourself I can still have my view on the subject.

Any way the thread is about the proposed autoupdate feature so lets keep it that way.

Alan
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: tarbat on November 09, 2012, 04:17:20 PM: Firstly, a caveat. I'm only running a very early beta of v4.04, but that gives me an insight into how this should work.

Quote from: romdouk on November 09, 2012, 03:54:35 PM
My only concern is that whenever V4.04 is released and I install it, my databases are not overwritten between the actual installation of V4.04 (once I have inserted my own NavData db3 file) and having to make a selection to opt out of Auto-Update in "Preferences" each and every time I start my RadarBox.

I'd be surprised if that were the case. I would expect that if you have the "Auto-Populate Aircraft Data" option unticked in v4.03, then that will still be unticked after updating to v4.04:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7118/8163472632_755f2068a2_o_d.png)

And as in v4.03, these options are remembered between sessions in v4.04.

All that the installation of v4.04 does is add some new fields to the aircraft table, one being the AUTOUPDATE field, which is set to "Y" on all existing records. And if you have the "Auto-Populate Aircraft Data" unticked, even records with AUTOUPDATE set to "Y" don't get updated when running v4.04.

But even then, a mass update of the whole aircraft table would only occur if you press the "Start Update" button in the new database explorer.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8169642887_991260bdfd_o_d.png)

I hope I've explained that clearly. I don't think you need worry that installing v4.04 will suddenly overwrite all you manually edited aircraft records.

Anyway, back to beta testing!!
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Runway 31 on November 09, 2012, 05:22:40 PM: Thanks for the further insight Tarbet, I cannot see there which would cause even the most negative of individuals any problems or concerns.

Each user can select whether to update their database or not and even then can further select which tables to update and can go even further and select which data within each table gets updated or not.

Looks very good to me

Alan
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: bratters on November 09, 2012, 08:06:03 PM: Looking good and I guess the only outstanding question is the quality/accuracy of the data.

I asume sources will not be changed? No chance of better Routes?
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Runway 31 on November 09, 2012, 08:28:05 PM: Routes will be enhanced from the next Navdata update

Alan
Title: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Kenny on November 10, 2012, 04:11:41 AM: hope to be able to test the 4.04 beta soon.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: neroon79 on November 10, 2012, 05:14:30 AM: That's what I had in mind how it should be done. Thanks Tarbat for the intel!

Ingo
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: bratters on November 10, 2012, 07:26:57 PM: Quote from: Runway 31 on November 09, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
Routes will be enhanced from the next Navdata update

Alan

Now there's a novelty! Thanks Alan, I look forward to that.

BTW anybody the slightest idea whether we're talking this side of Christmas? (this Christmas!!)
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: tarbat on November 10, 2012, 07:47:13 PM: Quote from: bratters on November 10, 2012, 07:26:57 PM
BTW anybody the slightest idea whether we're talking this side of Christmas? (this Christmas!!)

Probably too early to call yet. We are really just at the early stages of beta, although its going well from what I've seen so far.
Title: Re: RadarBox New Version - Database Sync Feature
Post by: Runway 31 on November 11, 2012, 12:16:59 PM: Tarbet,

Do you still have the opportunity to choose the destination path of the update?

Alan