AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: perezoso on February 19, 2011, 02:41:28 AM
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Hi All -
My box has been down for a long time; but now I'm finally back.
When I last posted here, my network subscription was just expired. I didn't renew the subscription, because my box feeds data from a large area that, at least several months ago, was about 90% unique coverage in Central and West Texas. Once I get this antenna on top of my windmill, heck, we'll be covering a chunk of northern Mexico too.
But I didn't like the idea of AirNav insisting that I pay handsomely to access the network, when I was feeding a nice chunk of unique data. My thought was, fair is fair, if I give them my unique data, then they should grant me access.
Airnav thought differently. Has anything changed in this regard? Or is the policy still that it doesn't matter what you contribute, you pay like the next guy - who might have no unique coverage or who may not even have a box?
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You have to pay like the next guy, correct.
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Why should you be treated differently because you think you are unique. We are all unique in our own way giving at least some coverage that probably no one else is in most areas except for some high density areas.
Alan
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Actually, at the time, the response of the AirNav people was not "why do you think you are unique". It was "well, how do we deal with all the people who don't feed anything interesting."
I can see, though, that AirNav continues with its overly-proprietary bent ... I'm not drinking their kool-aid! Will share data elsewhere. Once AirNav opens up a little bit, then maybe I'll be back.
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Whats interesting to some will be mundane to others.
Alan
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Well I can understand Perezoso's view, after all, you pay a not inconsiderable amount of money for the box in the first place so wouldnt it be more feasable that if you provide the data from wherever you are in the world then Airnav should reciprocate and provide the network data gratis in return?
Personally, the network holds no interest to me whatsoever. I am only interested in what my box is picking up wherever I am using it across the globe.So when my free period expires, I will not be renewing it. But please tell me guys in case I am missing the plot, why would you want to view the network from other boxes anyway, especially in your own area? This is an honest question, not a sarcastic remark!!
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I am interested in what is happening in other places, its good to see whats happening elsewhere, if it doesnt float your boat its your choice. its not as if it is forced on you,
You can view whatever you want to either your own data a or you can view what is happening elsewhere, it s good to have a choice.
To share or not to share, to use the network or keep to your own, its up to individual preferences.
Alan
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FWIW I agree entirely with Perezoso's point. It is worthy of debate.
its not as if it is forced on you,
So far as I can see, nobody has suggested it is "forced" upon users. Let's keep the thread constructive.
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I think its far to expensive to watch other people give away there data free to airnav, who then sell it back again to you.
Does that sound right to you?.
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Can't wait to see how this "data sharing" transfers over to the MLAT debate,when/if (obviously the later being more appropriate) ever comes into the user domain,as I suggest this will create a whole new perspective on the subject?
To be honest, I can see both sides of the argument.
To some extent,and whilst not wanting to "cross-threads",this week we've seen another useful,accurate,upto date database provider enter the market - however ,like most providers of such info, to be regularly kept up to speed with changes and new additions to the data set, there's a relitavely nominal subscription charge to be paid, which I think is reasonable.
If on the other hand, you're contributing to something by providing information, then it does seem strange to have to subscribe to gain maximum effect from it, by being able to access the network
But........is this actually any different from most other enthusiast run groups, whereby a hell of a lot of members provide relevant information for the use of other subscribers ( for example information as to the current airworthiness of aircraft/spotting logs suggesting changes as to where the aircraft may now reside/new aircraft details etc etc),and still pay for the "privalege"?
Maybe what's needed is a good close look at the cost of joining the network,and being a compulsory provider of data, based on good old supply and demand - as the more people subscribing and sharing then the better coverage would presumably become?
To make it more affordable in the current financial climate would be sensible, and in turn possibly advantageous to subscribers,whilst still providing revenue to AirNav (which after all,let's not forget is what the real reason obviously is ,as to why it's at a price).
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I am keeping the discussion constructive. When deciding which model of receiver to purchase like everyone else I looked at all the costs associated with each model not just the baseline purchase cost.
I knew what the annual costs would be and decided that the Radarbox suited me from what I wanted from the box, its initial purchase price and any annual additional running costs for the options I wanted.
I agree that individuals who give their data should receive a discount but I also knew what I was getting into when I opted to buy the box and take the network. Each individual is free to make the choice appropriate to them using whichever baseline they like.
Individuals can opt out of providing the data and can quite freely use other options to see network traffic such as Planeplotter if that is their want. As has been stated a lot of users are more than happy just looking at their own particular area, that decision could be altered if the costs associated with network provision were reduced and this could also be beneficial to Airnav if more users then shared data, especially when Mlat coverage is considered.
The thread is about someone wanting discounted network because in his view he could provide unique data and my view is that we all in most cases provide unique data and we should all pay the same. Going onto the cost of network is thread drift which has been covered extensively previously and it is up to each individual to decide whether the costs are agreeable to them or not. If the cost is not there are other options out there which may be more suitable for some.
You have the purse strings and can make the choice appropriate to you.
Alan
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I'm sure when I bought my RB two years ago there was mention that you would get 30 mins network usage for every hour of data provided.
Terry
That would work a treat - leave you're box on sharing over night for say ten hours,or whilst at work,and then "use" your credits at the weekend/early evening/holidays - sounds like a winner to me!!
Now ,all we need is a team of volunteers, to man the network "info providers credits" database!!!
No offence intended Terry - to be honest it does sound like an plausable AirNav alternative?
;-)
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Not much traffic about at night but the idea of credits is appealing.
Alan
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But please tell me guys in case I am missing the plot, why would you want to view the network from other boxes anyway, especially in your own area? This is an honest question, not a sarcastic remark!!
Hi Superspotter
I think you are coming from the viewpoint of a person in a small, flat country that has high volumes of traffic.
Take it from my perspective. I live in South Africa in one of the smaller cities. On an average day I have 30 aircraft in my log, of which about 5 or 6 will have ADS-B. There are only 60 locally registered aircraft with ADS-B. The country is about 10 times the size of the UK. Because of mountainous terrain the range of Radarbox is low. We have about 8 Radarboxes in the country and about we have 3 cities where information is sent to the network. I therefore have my map set up so that I can see the whole of South Africa. If I switched off the network I would be staring at a blank screen. To me network aircraft keep me alive. Without them I might as well sell the Radarbox and find another hobby.
I accept that supplying info to the network is a personal choice and some have an objection to supplying information that they perceive is "sold" AirNav. I see it differently - I supply information free to the network and hope that others will as well so that I have something to look at.
Because of my unusual location I also add as much as I can to the database update project. We can add some registrations to those unknowns that originate in Africa.
What is interesting to me is that bandwidth in South Africa is of the most expensive in the World. To connect to the internet I need to pay about for a 364K line the equivalent of GBP275 (using the Big Mac index) and 1 Big Mac per Gig. Despite this we South Africans are prepared to share. I do not understand why people in developed countries have such a big issue with sharing data. The cost is minimal, especially where people have a fixed fee for bandwidth regardless of use.
Sharing is a personal issue, based on your own perceptions and beliefs but all I ask is that you think of people like me.
Thanks for listening
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Never heard of it before Terry but if someone can provide a link please do so.
Alan
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This is where I saw it
Explained at http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=2118.msg17601#msg17601
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Our answer to all this discussion is quite simple: if you want quality and to use a system which is being used by major world airlines and aicraft operators including access to the world's biggest ads-b network you have to pay. Like anything else on the web there are free alternative but of course not professionaly maintained and some of them with dubious quality.
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In answer to Chris11, please do not think for one minute I was being flippant. Yes I live in Europe but I also, travel the world and regularly find myself in Africa, middle east, asia etc. I can fully understand your requirement for the network, I cannot understand the desire for people to use it in a heavily aircraft populated area especially with the inbuilt delay which in my opinion, makes the display quite messy. My opinion I stated!
To answer Runway 31's statement that I may reconsider my outlook if the network was free, no, I would still not subscribe as I only want to see what is in my vicinity, whether I am in Luxembourg as I am at present or in Libreville, Lagos, Nairobi etc where I could be next week!
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As I said superspotter each to their own.
Alan
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Our answer to all this discussion is quite simple: if you want quality and to use a system which is being used by major world airlines and aicraft operators including access to the world's biggest ads-b network you have to pay. Like anything else on the web there are free alternative but of course not professionaly maintained and some of them with dubious quality.
It's a pity then, that you don't maintain such professionalism with the maintainence of the aircraft database, which despite the heroism of the updaters,remains ignored and ignored and ignored.
To weeks on, and still no fix with respect to downloading what the users want.
There's little point in having a professionaly maintained network, portraying inaccurate and hopelessly old information, if it wasn't for the efforts of a handful of amateur enthusiast,who time and time again have to come to your rescue?
comments like this really annoy me - yes ok - I've admittedly gone totally off subject, but in some way , I haven't................
We want quality............but we are not getting it - quite simple really?
Rant over
Rgds
Rich
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I am keeping the discussion constructive. When deciding which model of receiver to purchase like everyone else I looked at all the costs associated with each model not just the baseline purchase cost.
I knew what the annual costs would be and decided that the Radarbox suited me from what I wanted from the box, its initial purchase price and any annual additional running costs for the options I wanted.
I agree that individuals who give their data should receive a discount but I also knew what I was getting into when I opted to buy the box and take the network. Each individual is free to make the choice appropriate to them using whichever baseline they like.
Individuals can opt out of providing the data and can quite freely use other options to see network traffic such as Planeplotter if that is their want. As has been stated a lot of users are more than happy just looking at their own particular area, that decision could be altered if the costs associated with network provision were reduced and this could also be beneficial to Airnav if more users then shared data, especially when Mlat coverage is considered.
The thread is about someone wanting discounted network because in his view he could provide unique data and my view is that we all in most cases provide unique data and we should all pay the same. Going onto the cost of network is thread drift which has been covered extensively previously and it is up to each individual to decide whether the costs are agreeable to them or not. If the cost is not there are other options out there which may be more suitable for some.
You have the purse strings and can make the choice appropriate to you.
Alan
Alan,
Totally agree with all your comments. The 'constructive' comment was only made by 'eggplant'. Wondered where he had been. I seem to remember him trying to stir things up on the same issue some time ago. We all know his views on the Network !
As you say you pays your money and makes your choice. I'm sure Chris11 is not the only person appreciative of Network sharers.
Ian
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Our answer to all this discussion is quite simple: if you want quality and to use a system which is being used by major world airlines and aicraft operators including access to the world's biggest ads-b network you have to pay. Like anything else on the web there are free alternative but of course not professionaly maintained and some of them with dubious quality.
Ooops. I'm back. I actually was not coming back; but a google to direct me to a another thread here, so I checked this one.
I guess the difference in my perspective is that I perceive that the network is primarily composed of hobbyists, not "professionals". It'd be interesting to have actual figures on that. I'm talking about the people that own boxes and feed the network - not corporate subscribers.
Now, I guess it is true that some hobbyists just can't stand having anything less than a 'professional' network. But the network has a lot of warts - large coverage gaps - for which you need to recruit and maintain new members to fill.
Are those people "professionals"? I suspect that by and large, the answer is no. They are probably hobbyists that have paid substantially for your hardware.
I would be much more sympathetic to AirNav's position if Airnav was expanding network coverage at its own expense. But it isn't. Instead it is trying to expand its network by inducing people to pay for the privilege of feeding your network.
Maybe I'm in the minority; but it seems to me to be almost an abusive relationship that you want to develop with your clients. (Here I mean those clients that own and operate boxes that share on the network.)
What I think is that it's probably just a matter of time before an alternative network saps away AirNav's momentum (and limits or even reverses its network growth) unless AirNav can figure out a way to be more responsive to folks like me. Sorry, I just can't get any warm fuzzy feelings about a company that asks me to whip out my credit card every week for the privilege of feeding them their product.
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Marpleman: you don't need to write the same thing over and over again week after week.
We have already told users that RadarBox software will have an upgrade with the database requests implemented once ShipTrax software is finished. We can't do it now because both applications share the same source code.
The work done by the updaters team is amazing and continues day after day. We have released a new navdata.db3 which tries remedy the situation for now knowing that a definitive solution will only happen when RadarBox gets a new upgrade (explained above).
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This topic comes up from time to time and people forget a few things:
1.) When the network was launched we were the 1st network out there and we did think about whether a share and get network data free would work or whether it had to be paid for. (Some of you won't believe this :) but some of the earlier versions did have some text which indicated this could be the case)
2.) We did try and think, if a customer is sharing do we just give them free network data even though they might be sharing the same data that 50 other users on the network are at that moment or whether they only get one flight per day. This is not easy to manage or think of particular rules, enforce them and if we went down this path it would also annoy customers in low traffic, not unique areas.
3.) Some users believe the data being passed from them to us and then back through the network is a simple process and should be free. This isn't the case and with a few numbers you can work out the cost of bandwidth we need to pay and servers, support to keep this running. One way or another there has to be a cost passed back.
4.) Once the network was released we did listen to customers and reduced the price substantially for the network.
I am sure you can see from the above its not a case of us not listening but more of a case where there is cost involved and it has to be passed back one way or another.
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Marpleman: you don't need to write the same thing over and over again week after week.
We have already told users that RadarBox software will have an upgrade with the database requests implemented once ShipTrax software is finished. We can't do it now because both applications share the same source code.
The work done by the updaters team is amazing and continues day after day. We have released a new navdata.db3 which tries remedy the situation for now knowing that a definitive solution will only happen when RadarBox gets a new upgrade (explained above).
I'm afraid that I do have to write the same thing over and over again though, as again and again, you promise to act by releasing a revised download of the new database in a week or so, but today come back and once again tell us it will be dealt with when Shiptrax is released - why bother to act like you are going to do something, when you clearly are not??
I can't believe there are not more members bemoaning this total lack of resource for a product that is actually on the commercial market place, compared to something that has yet to be launched?
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Marpleman,
The new database update to rectify the issues in the ealier one released two weeks ago is not what dev is talking about. That will still be released soon.
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Marpleman,
The new database update to rectify the issues in the ealier one released two weeks ago is not what dev is talking about. That will still be released soon.
Fair enough - although it wasn't obvious to me!
I look forward to being able to download the release soon then??
One week? Two weeks?
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Alan,
Totally agree with all your comments. The 'constructive' comment was only made by 'eggplant'. Wondered where he had been. I seem to remember him trying to stir things up on the same issue some time ago. We all know his views on the Network !
As you say you pays your money and makes your choice. I'm sure Chris11 is not the only person appreciative of Network sharers.
Ian
Ian,
I take offence at your accusation that I "stir things up". As an AN customer I am entitled to an opinion. In my posts I have merely stated my thoughts appropriate to the respective thread. If that "stirs thing up" (in your opinion), so be it. I don't see why I should be damned for stating my opinion. I would appreciate it if you could refrain from puerile comments in future. I look forward to an apology from you, though I won't hold my breath waiting ! Do you really think Alan's comment " it's not like it's forced on you" is constructive ?
Sigh
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Eggplant it is easy to take one phrase from a reply and take it out of context, please read the whole reply and the follow ups and dont be selective.
Alan
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Eggplant it is easy to take one phrase from a reply and take it out of context, please read the whole reply and the follow ups and dont be selective.
Alan
Alan,
As I said, it's ONLY eggplant and I think we have all read his views on this matter many, many times already. I actually thought that AN had banned the guy after his last lot of rants on the subject. No such luck, eh.
Eggplant,
You are right about one thing though, you needn't hold your breath waiting for an apology !
Ian
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Hello
I'm new here but been an aircraft spotter for 40 years. I've been watching aircraft on the Flightradar website and visiting other forums. Although a lot of money I'm now thinking about getting my own box as my local area isn't covered too well.
RadarBox looks most promising as I'm not too good with computers. But I'm surprised that I'm having to pay extra for the network which doesn't offer more than I can see on Flightradar?
And why would you ban someone?
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Hi C152
I've not been spotting quite as long as you sir, but I'm not far off!!
I'm pretty certain you get 12 months free network coverage (delayed?) when you purchase a box, and although sites like Flightradar do give useful coverage, it doesn't show local non ads-b traffic which your own personal box will do (light a/c,biz jets,military,Dash 8's,Embraers etc etc) so there are many benefits from having your own box
As you'll see from the arguement.............oops sorry debate on here, there are pro's and cons of subscribing for additional time on the network.
As regards banning someone, keep on board for a few days, and you'll see the sort of stuff that goes on!! ;-)
Hope you take the plunge!
rgds
Rich
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Hi C152,
Welcome to the forum I note what you state re having to pay more for the network. Please note the network is not compulsory and like any other Radarbox user you are free to use whichever means you see fit to see traffic outwith your local area.
The first years network use comes included with the price of the box.
Alan
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Hello
My mother says that she wouldn't like to be without the network anyway. She says she has learnt much about airlines etc from it that we would never get in our range. She is not too computer literate so she likes the way it all integrates into one program and doesn't have to jump between them etc.
We also use the flightradar24 and radarvirtuel and contribute to them 24/7
Andrew
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Hi C152
If you do consider getting a box then also think about your surrounding such as tall buildings, trees hills etc. The box requires line of sight to the aircraft so being down in a hollow or surrounded by lots of building will restrict what you pick-up. The aerial that comes with the box is not designed for permanent external use so if you can put up an external aerial on a roof it helps to get extra distance.
Regarding banning people each forum sets down rules and some people exceed those rules. When i first started on this forum there was a lot of bickering and some people had an agenda. However i am glad to say it has been alot better since then and most people now are pretty reasonable and helpful.
Hope these comments help.
Brian
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Lets keep some of the infighting between members to a minimal please on the forum, otherwise we will warn members and lock threads. Keep to the topic.
C152 don't worry about being banned on the forum, the only people who are those who are trying to promote other products or as others say breaking the rules or trying to promote there own agenda. The vast vast majority do not break any of the rules.
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Thanks for the all the answers. Looks better than I thought.
Just a bit worried by some personal comments posted today.
I'll search around and see what the other boxes do and how much the network costs. The planeplotter live network looks good value and works with radarbox.
Glad I asked.
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Does anyone use planeplotter with their radarbox and is it better than the airnav live network?
Its a lot cheaper and seems to have good coverage. Just not sure what I'd miss if I choose that option rather than airnavs?
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You can compare them if you get a box. The cost of the box includes a years network access and the Planeplotter price is negligable for the year so try them both and see what you think will suit you best.
Alan
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Thanks Alan. I dont want to jump in and buy a radarbox until I know all the options and costs. There are so many to choose from. Im going to have to dig around a bit more and check out the prices and features of the other boxes.
Appreciate all your help though.
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I dont mind paying for the network aslong as it is a reasonable price,what i am annouyed at is it took me 4 years to save up for the air nav, i get it im made up then they bring a 3d version out and i cant afford it, thats whats annoyed me more than anything, i know you can get a add on but thats still a bit pricey for me at the moment, i love my airnav and have tracked many flights. its not all roses i know but i love it, just hope the subscription does not go up too much, thats all. janet
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I never use 3D. I don't think you are missing much
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I have it and dont use it either as i prefer the 2D version.
Alan
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I've checked out the other boxes and was just about to get a radarbox when I got an email today saying theres new software for the other box (I dont want to mention the name as I dont want to get banned).
Will there be new radarbox software soon? I think I read that it might be in April? Shall I wait until then or maybe buy the other box?
So many choices.
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C152,
Dont worry about mentioning the other box, it takes a hell of a lot more than that to get banned.
There will be a new version of Radarbox out later on this year i dont know when but it is being worked on just now but I have not heard anything about it being as early as April.
Possibly there will be a free upgrade to the new Radarbox software version when it comes out, same as the last time, maybe Airnav will be able to advise.
Alan
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Great Alan, thanks.
I thought Id read in another message when Airnav was saying that the new software would be out when shiptrax was finished in April.
Will it have mlat do you think? Now that would be worth the wait as long as its not going to cost the earth.
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I would think that the finish of Shiptrax is when Airnav will be in the position to give its full resources to the new software not when it would be available.
They have mentioned Mlat is going to be part of it but whether it will or not you know as much as I do or even if the current box will be able to handle it or whether an add on would be needed,.
Saying anything else at this stage whould be pure guess work and conjecture and Airnav will not say anything to save giving the game away to other systems.
We will need to wait and see what what comes our way.
Alan
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Tx Alan.
That makes loads of sense. I'll hold fire on the other box for a while.