AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: phil zech on April 29, 2010, 03:38:28 PM
-
Afternoon All,
This is seperate to all the other postings about how we can keep an updated database.
I currently manually update my database using Winged Words (TAS) , LAAS monthly review.
If I update for example G-???? easyjet to become G-???? Monarch all I do is change the Reg and Airline in database explorer, I assume the Mode S code does not change.
However if I change G-???? BMI to SE- City Airlines, does the Mode S code change? as it is now registered in a new country.
Therefore if I dont have the new Mode S code , am I wasting my time changing Reg and Airline and would I be best deleting the old record and wait for it to update next time it shows up on RB.
Hope I have explained myself OK
Many thanks
Phil
-
If I update for example G-???? easyjet to become G-???? Monarch all I do is change the Reg and Airline in database explorer, I assume the Mode S code does not change.
However if I change G-???? BMI to SE- City Airlines, does the Mode S code change? as it is now registered in a new country.
Therefore if I dont have the new Mode S code , am I wasting my time changing Reg and Airline and would I be best deleting the old record and wait for it to update next time it shows up on RB.
As you have hinted at, the answer to your question varies from country to country.
The ICAO rules say that as long as an aircraft stays on a particular country's register (G-, N, etc) it should keep the same 24-bit ICAO address (aka hex code).
Few countries actually operate that way (although the UK does, in fact).
Many other countries (USA, Canada, Germany, etc) have predefined tie-ups between all allocatable registration marks (whether in use or not) and a corresponding address. This means that if an aircraft moves to a different registration within a country's registry (e.g. from one N number to another N number) the hex code will change.
In either case, you can't create or change a record in your NavData database unless you know the new hex code. And if, over time, you pick up more than one aircraft with the same registration/hex code (e.g. re-use of an N number, which is fairly common) you will have to choose which details to store, since none of the databases that come with enthusiast Mode S receivers can handle multiple uses of a hex code.
HTH
Dave
-
Thanks for that Dave,
So the best policy until we get the AN database up and running, would be to delete the old record and await for the aircraft with its new identity to show up on ANRB as per GAS.
Cheers
Phil
-
So the best policy until we get the AN database up and running, would be to delete the old record and await for the aircraft with its new identity to show up on ANRB as per GAS.
You will need to ask AirNav exactly how the populate routine works.
I know that the AT (Aircraft Type) field in the database doesn't currently get populated when a new record is created (or an existing one repopulated) which is why there are so many records with dodgy type codes or the dreaded three dots.
-
A list of common UK ones can be found at this topic.
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=2102
I will ensure these are now all recorded correctly on the Airnav database as a matter of priority
There are now 6 of us currently checking the data and a miniumum of 90.000 hexcodes to workthrough. We are prioritising the modern airline types. Please bear with us
Regards
ACW367
-
A list of common UK ones can be found at this topic.
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=2102
I will ensure these are now all recorded correctly on the Airnav database as a matter of priority
Changes of G- registration are more common than you might think - in the three years since G-JEMB became G-OOAF there have been another 190 such instances.
-
Dave we are aware that UK mode S tie-ups change almost weekly. With the enormity of the database checking task we will get to them, but thought it was best to prioritise airliners as this benefits the worldwide Airnav community, not just UK users. All will be got to in due course but it is an enormous undertaking that won't be completed in days or weeks.
Regards
ACW367
-
Dave we are aware that UK mode S tie-ups change almost weekly. With the enormity of the database checking task we will get to them, but thought it was best to prioritise airliners as this benefits the worldwide Airnav community, not just UK users. All will be got to in due course but it is an enormous undertaking that won't be completed in days or weeks.
Sorry, yes I appreciate the enormity of the task as well as anyone, I hadn't realised that research resources were so constrained.
But in that case, have you thought of suggesting that AirNav simply buy that information direct from the CAA ?
Surely that would save you guys a heck of a lot of pointless and unnecessary work ? It's readily available:
(http://www.civilaircraftregisters.org/Mode_S_Resources/G-INFO%20database%20pricing.gif)
It's a continuing mystery to me why AirNav persist in the belief that they are somehow entitled to get, for free, data that the rest of the industry expects to have to pay for.
And no, before you ask, I'm not on commission from the CAA :-)
-
simply buy that information direct from the CAA ?
Just had a look at their database Dave. It didn't have any of the Australian aircraft I type in listed. Seems to be a very incomplete database!
-
simply buy that information direct from the CAA ?
Just had a look at their database Dave. It didn't have any of the Australian aircraft I type in listed. Seems to be a very incomplete database!
pjm
Am I missing something here ? Surely the CAA database is only going to represent UK airframes, so don't see how any Aussie craft would be accommodated?
Rgds
Rich
-
Just had a look at their database Dave. It didn't have any of the Australian aircraft I type in listed. Seems to be a very incomplete database!
Er, yes, it's the UK CAA, so obviously it concerns itself with UK aircraft.
So clearly the time saved in not having to research those could be used instead to research Australian aircraft.
Or am I missing something here ?
-
Just had a look at their database Dave. It didn't have any of the Australian aircraft I type in listed. Seems to be a very incomplete database!
Er, yes, it's the UK CAA, so obviously it concerns itself with UK aircraft.
So clearly the time saved in not having to research those could be used instead to research Australian aircraft.
Makes it much more fun though!!!
Dave - on a more serious note, I'm aware the US have/had a similar resource many moons ago, but are you aware if most other westernised countries have such, specifically from the respective Aviation Authorities?
Cheers
Rich
-
Rich
GAS have a page on all the official registers that they've come across: http://www.gatwickaviationsociety.org.uk/registers_official.asp
Hope that helps
Rod
-
Or am I missing something here ?
Seems ironic to me that you would be suggesting the purchase of some database updates that only contain partial information (a small part of the world).
-
Seems ironic to me that you would be suggesting the purchase of some database updates that only contain partial information (a small part of the world).
On the contrary, it seems entirely logical to me.
As of yesterday, there are 20,807 aircraft on the UK register.
So 20,807 records in NavData that are guaranteed to be correct without requiring any expenditure of effort - that's a pretty good start, I would have thought.
Where's the problem with that ?
-
Rich
GAS have a page on all the official registers that they've come across: http://www.gatwickaviationsociety.org.uk/registers_official.asp
Hope that helps
Rod
Cheers Dave
Appreciate your assistance as ever
Rich
-
Or Rod, as I'm often called ;-)
Dave Rod
-
Or Rod, as I'm often called ;-)
Dave Rod
Apologies Rod
I'm having a "moment" for most of the morning!!!
Regards
Rich
-
But in that case, have you thought of suggesting that AirNav simply buy that information direct from the CAA ?
Surely that would save you guys a heck of a lot of pointless and unnecessary work ? It's readily available:
It's a continuing mystery to me why AirNav persist in the belief that they are somehow entitled to get, for free, data that the rest of the industry expects to have to pay for.
And no, before you ask, I'm not on commission from the CAA :-)
Dave you know full well that Airnav cannot just purchase the official CAA and then use it to populate their own database. If Airnav did this they would be in breach of contract and liable to legal action. They all have licence agreements which specifically prevent this. The CAA one says:
"Copyright in the report and Database right in the Database (and the format of the data) whether on disks or other media, are vested in the CAA and it shall not be copied or distributed, sold or hired out or otherwise dealt with, without the written consent of the CAA. All rights reserved."
The international civil aircraft register which you have suggested they use before states:
"2. LICENSEE RIGHTS AND RESTRICTIONS OF USE.
2.1 - BUREAU VERITAS grants the licensee a personal, non-exclusive, non-assignable and non-transferable licence to the International Register of Civil Aircraft via the website aviation-register.com for his own internal business purposes. The licensee is not authorised to grant any sub-licence.
2.2 -The Licensee shall not:
2.2.1 - Sell, rent, use, access, transmit, reproduce, adapt or modify or make any attempt to modify, in whole or in part the Available Information and/or the Computer Software, even on the ground that the Available Information and/or the Computer Software allegedly contains an error, except and to the extent expressly permitted by the present license."
The only way Airnav could use this kind of official information is to negotiate a bespoke utility direct with the Government organisations. This would require extensive legal work on the licence jargon and I guess would be very prohibitive in cost.
-
Now that's just being disingenuous.
You know as well as I do that the only fields that AirNav are populating (apart from the photo links) are registration, type, serial number and Mode S code - information that is, to all intents and purposes, in the public domain (if it wasn't, presumably you wouldn't even be attempting the task).
How many enthusiast societies and websites that publish this kind of data, for UK and other aircraft, do you think have been prosecuted by the CAA and its equivalents ?
All Mode S codes issued throughout the world are technically the property of the issuing registration authority, so following your argument to its logical conclusion would mean that nobody is ever allowed to publish any tieup data without express prior permission from the relevant organisation.
Granted, if AirNav were planning to buy and then redistribute proprietary information such as owner names and addresses, airframe hours, C of A expiries, etc, then clearly the CAA would not stand by idly, but nobody is suggesting that.
So I stand by my original point - trying to collate a UK Mode S tie-up database while ignoring the availability of official data is like cutting the grass with nail-scissors when AirNav could have bought you a lawn-mower :-)
-
How many enthusiast societies and websites that publish this kind of data, for UK and other aircraft, do you think have been prosecuted by the CAA and its equivalents ?
That's quite true but would it be a different kettle of fish if you then go on to 'sell' that information? By that I mean the database that would then be sold as part of the ANRB package.
Just my two pennyworth.
-
That's quite true but would it be a different kettle of fish if you then go on to 'sell' that information? By that I mean the database that would then be sold as part of the ANRB package.
Anyone who is familiar with G-INFO will recognise the following (both the data and the field names/layout):
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<?xml-stylesheet type="text/xsl" href="basestation.xsl"?>
<bml>
<transmission>
<modes>400400</modes>
<country></country>
</transmission>
<regdata>
<registration>G-BNLA</registration>
<currentregdate>30/06/1989</currentregdate>
<previousid>NEW USA</previousid>
<firstregdate>30/06/1989</firstregdate>
<status>Registered</status>
<deregdate></deregdate>
<manufacturer>BOEING COMPANY</manufacturer>
<type>BOEING 747-436</type>
<serialno>23908</serialno>
<popularname>-</popularname>
<genericname>747</genericname>
<aircraftclass>FIXED-WING LANDPLANE</aircraftclass>
<engines></engines>
<ownershipstatus>Chartered</ownershipstatus>
<registeredowners></registeredowners>
<mtow>396890kg</mtow>
<totalhours>55249 at 31/12/2001</totalhours>
<yearbuilt>1989</yearbuilt>
<cofacategory>TRANSPORT (PASSENGER)</cofacategory>
<cofaexpiry>29/06/2005</cofaexpiry>
</regdata>
<user>
<notes></notes>
</user>
<history/>
</bml>
It's from the UK Starter Database on my BaseStation CD, sold as part of the SBS-1 package (only the items indicated thus are relevant to this discussion).
As far as I know, Kinetic and the CAA are still on speaking terms :-)