AirNav Systems Forum

AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: Runway 31 on April 16, 2010, 07:03:43 PM

Title: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Runway 31 on April 16, 2010, 07:03:43 PM
I noted the following on another forum.  Can you advise me if Airnav is compatible with PP.

Hi
> I'm fairly new to all this and this group so am looking for some info.
> I recently purchased a Airnav Radar Box and am using the supplied
> software and antenna. What I wanted to know is can I track Military
> aircraft & light aircraft or is it just commericial aircraft? Also is
> this the best software to use?
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
> Elliot

Elliot,

Plane Plotter will allow tracking of mil aircraft only if there are enough people running the Kinetic SBS (/not/ the less capable Air Nav box), so if you are considering getting something the Kinetic is the one to go for.
See if you can sell the AirNav box and get a second-hand Kinetic.  <G>

But your input to Plane Plotter (one-off cost 25 Euro) would be most welcome.  Mil (Mlat) plotting costs 12 Euro a year (but it's free if you are uploading from a Kinetic SBS box).  Plane Plotter is a super add-on for your box.

Cheers,
David
--
Sa
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Tallyho on April 16, 2010, 07:26:48 PM
Hi David
PP works fine with ANRB, I run the two together on my machine and have done for sometime.
I use my ANRB to feed both the RB network and the PP network.
I purchased the one off payment to subscribe to the PP network and do not use the RB network for three reasons 1) cost and 2) access to download and store network data 3) ability to MLAT non positional traffic (e.g. GA MODE-S aircraft).

I therefore just use my RB to look at my local data and I use PP for the rest of the world (although I am mainly interested in UK airspace traffic which has fantastic PP coverage).

What the extract refers to below is the ability to feed the PP network with MLAT data, the SBS can do this but RB cannot due to the internals of the box (all above my head). However this does not stop you from using the MLAT feature in PP to obtain positional data for non positional Mode-S reports. Planeplotter enables all users to do this for a very small one off fee, (SBS MLAT Ground Stations that contribute MLAT for all other users data do not have to pay this one off cost).

In my opinion ANRB has a better interface than the SBS and for those that want to spend out on it, it has the network capability built in.
In my case the PP network offers a much cheaper alternative with more functionailty that I require. It's horses for courses.

I would highly recommend PP to either SBS or RB users.

PS - PP can also be used with no SBS or RB, it also interfaces with some newer alternative ADS-B revceivers that are now available.

I hope this helps if you need any more info ask away.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Runway 31 on April 16, 2010, 07:36:20 PM
Thanks for that explanation Tallyho, much appreciated.  How easy is it to set up ANRB with PP.?
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Tallyho on April 17, 2010, 06:44:43 AM
It's very simple to setup... it comes with an install wizard that runs on install, just answer the questions.
If you have any problems PP has a very active and helpful community/forum on yahoo groups...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/planeplotter/

Some useful info here...
http://www.mantma.co.uk/pp_support.html
http://www.mantma.co.uk/pp_faq.html

Keith
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Runway 31 on April 17, 2010, 08:08:05 AM
Thanks for your assistance Keith, I will have a look and give it a go.

Alan
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: NF2G on April 17, 2010, 12:24:35 PM
The quoted comment about tracking military aircraft is, AFAIK, baloney.

Military aircraft do not usually transmit ADS-B location information.  They keep track of each other with onboard radar and TACAN.  Any of the virtual radar devices will detect military aircraft that have operational transponders, just like any other flight.

Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: tarbat on April 17, 2010, 12:31:08 PM
The quoted comment about tracking military aircraft is, AFAIK, baloney.

Military aircraft do not usually transmit ADS-B location information.  They keep track of each other with onboard radar and TACAN.  Any of the virtual radar devices will detect military aircraft that have operational transponders, just like any other flight.



Planeplotter uses multilateration to track the position of military, and other non-ADS-B equipped aircraft.  Example of tracking a Nimrod at http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=4578.msg45827#msg45827
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 17, 2010, 01:20:20 PM
The quoted comment about tracking military aircraft is, AFAIK, baloney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateration
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Allocator on April 17, 2010, 01:40:44 PM
It's very simple to setup... it comes with an install wizard that runs on install, just answer the questions.
If you have any problems PP has a very active and helpful community/forum on yahoo groups...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/planeplotter/

Some useful info here...
http://www.mantma.co.uk/pp_support.html
http://www.mantma.co.uk/pp_faq.html

Keith

Keith,

I wouldn't agree that PP is 'easy' to set up.  I've been using PP for a number of years and helped Bev with a little bit of Beta testing to get RB to work with PP shortly after RB was launched.  PP has a vast number of options - which is a good thing and a bad thing - and often the help file lags behind Bev's constant development.  I would agree it's not difficult to set up if you know what you are doing and this is where the forum comes in.  Although the PP forum is very informative, as it's the standard Yahoo item, threads soon drop off the bottom of the page and sometimes it's difficult to find stuff.

I've got 2 registered versions of PP including 2 subscriptions to Mlat.  Mlat does work after a fashion, but it's far from perfect in the way that it works and in how the aircraft are tracked and displayed.  Display of non-positional aircraft is totally dependant on Bev's server and also on people feeding data to the server from their Mode S boxes - so when it's working it's fine, but there are no guarantees as to coverage and performance.

I'm not knocking PP and I'd recommend that people give it a try- bearing in mind that you can't access shared data without paying the one-off registration fee, and you won't get Mlat data unless you pay another small annual fee (unless you are feeding valid data in a format that allows Mlat data processing).  Even though I paid 2 registration fees for Mlat to support Bev's development, I don't think that I'll be renewing after the 12 months as I'm just not using PP enough.  I will still use PP occasionally to see how development is proceeding, but I get what I need on a day-to-day basis from RB.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 17, 2010, 02:04:39 PM
Display of non-positional aircraft is totally dependant on Bev's server and also on people feeding data to the server from their Mode S boxes - so when it's working it's fine, but there are no guarantees as to coverage and performance.

It will be interesting to see AirNav's approach to multilateration which, we're told, will be different, although presumably still dependent on server processing of data from users' boxes.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Tallyho on April 17, 2010, 03:39:07 PM
Really I thought PP setup was simple... and probably no different to SBS.

If you want to be an MLAT contributor via an SBS then that is a different matter, a little more technical no how and assistance is required from the forum.

However if you are just running up adding a few charts and linking to your SBS or RB to me it was just a few tick boxes and pointing to the correct file locations and presto.

Keith
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Tallyho on April 17, 2010, 03:51:01 PM
Quote
Display of non-positional aircraft is totally dependant on Bev's server and also on people feeding data to the server from their Mode S boxes - so when it's working it's fine, but there are no guarantees as to coverage and performance.

No different to Airnav's network server there then, or anyone elses for that matter !

At the moment it has no competitiors for MLAT capabilities, therefore it is the best and only system to use.
I am not a big user of MLAT but everytime I have tried it with PP, it has worked for me, so I am happy.

If/when a competitor appears I will look at it, if it offers better performance/value then I may change but right now PP is the system of choice for me for shared network/MLAT, it does all I want for the right price.

Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: AirNav Development on April 17, 2010, 04:17:05 PM
It's widely known that the way PP does MLAT is extremely unreliable. It was a clever of doing MLAT with the hardware the market offers nowadays. When we have our own MLAT solution is will be accurate and reliable otherwise we won't release it.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Allocator on April 17, 2010, 04:56:34 PM
Really I thought PP setup was simple... and probably no different to SBS.

When you first run PP, there are no maps, no database, no default setting that work for RB.  All the things you mention in the setup are very simple - if you know what you are doing!  Even now, there is more than one PP setup that appears to work with RB data, but I'm blowed if I know which one I should be using :-)

Again, I don't want to put anybody off, nor to slight the excellent work that Bev continues to do - but there have been quite a few people who have installed PP, run it and been totally confused as to how it works.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 17, 2010, 05:02:29 PM
It's widely known that the way PP does MLAT is extremely unreliable. It was a clever of doing MLAT with the hardware the market offers nowadays. When we have our own MLAT solution is will be accurate and reliable otherwise we won't release it.

Will your solution work with existing RadarBox hardware ?  Or is it too early to ask that question ?
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveG on April 17, 2010, 05:19:57 PM
Will your solution work with existing RadarBox hardware ?  Or is it too early to ask that question ?
I for one hope so!
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: jannuh on April 18, 2010, 07:48:18 AM
It's widely known that the way PP does MLAT is extremely unreliable. It was a clever of doing MLAT with the hardware the market offers nowadays. When we have our own MLAT solution is will be accurate and reliable otherwise we won't release it.
So, seen that...  it will even be more reliable and accurate as RB's dbase!
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 18, 2010, 09:27:39 AM
Will your solution work with existing RadarBox hardware ?  Or is it too early to ask that question ?

I for one hope so!

Well the only people who can answer that - AirNav - have yet to comment, but I'm sure they will agree that you simply can't do MLat without precise, synchronised timing data from the ground stations involved.

I understand from those who know about these things that the current RadarBox hardware/firmware can't provide this data.  While it may be possible to expose precise internal RadarBox timing data via a firmware upgrade, that still leaves the issue of synchronisation.

AirNav have disparaged the PlanePlotter method of doing this via a reference ADS-B aircraft, so clearly they aren't planning to do it that way, and as far as I can see the only other alternative is an architecture that involves all ground stations having access to an external source of synchronised time data.

I think we can rule out atomic clocks inside RadarBox, so that only leaves GPS time as a feasible solution (as with commercial MLat systems).

At the very least, then, I think we're looking at a GPS timer add-on for RadarBox, if not a completely new RadarBox.  If I'm wrong, doubtless AirNav will tell us in due course.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: AirNav Development on April 18, 2010, 12:41:28 PM
>So, seen that...  it will even be more reliable and accurate as RB's dbase!

It's not the database but some problems with less than 1% of aircraft inside the aircraft table. Anyway the problem has already been corrected on the server which has now 44095 updated and 100% correct records (permanently adding new ones).

Regarding MLAT we prefer not to add any comment about it right now (the previous post already contains the information we wanted to share).
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 18, 2010, 03:27:15 PM
Regarding MLAT we prefer not to add any comment about it right now (the previous post already contains the information we wanted to share).

OK, thanks for the confirmation, good to see we're thinking along the same lines.

I guess it's way too early to ask what the likely cost of the MLat-enabled RadarBox is likely to be, or whether there will be an upgrade path from the current hardware ?

Failing that, can you say anything about the likely timescale ?
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: AirNav Development on April 18, 2010, 03:49:01 PM
Unfortunately we cannot release any more details now.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 18, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
Unfortunately we cannot release any more details now.

Fair enough, guess I'll need to hang on to the old SBS for a while yet.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 18, 2010, 10:47:37 PM
It's not the database but some problems with less than 1% of aircraft inside the aircraft table. Anyway the problem has already been corrected on the server which has now 44095 updated and 100% correct records (permanently adding new ones).

I noticed GLF5 N600JD on the network again today.  Up to now, it has been populating as a C650 (previous user of that reg, re-registered 3 years ago).

Having deleted it from my NavData.db3 to force it to refresh from the server, it now populates with the dreaded three dots instead. 

Looks like there's still work to be done here.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: AirNav Development on April 18, 2010, 11:35:56 PM
The 3 dots mean that the RadarBox software was not able to convert the aircraft type into a 4 letter aircraft type code. This will be also be changed on a future software version (download the 4 letter code directly from the server).
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 19, 2010, 07:12:14 AM
The 3 dots mean that the RadarBox software was not able to convert the aircraft type into a 4 letter aircraft type code. This will be also be changed on a future software version (download the 4 letter code directly from the server).

I'm sure many users, myself included, are confused now.

You're saying that the data on the server is correct, but that there's still no guarantee users will see the correct aircraft type, or indeed any type at all, shown on the radar screen and the aircraft list.  If that's the case, what changes, if any, will we see ?

Incidentally, fewer than 30% of ICAO aircraft type codes are 4 letters.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Jeremy on April 19, 2010, 08:36:43 AM
'push and stirring again.
Take your politics off forum, please!
J.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 19, 2010, 09:25:40 AM
'push and stirring again.
Take your politics off forum, please!

Thank you for your helpful contribution, Jeremy.

Could I suggest that, since you clearly don't understand the issue being discussed, you try following AirNav's latest advice:

However yes, a clean of your NavData database would force it to get fresh data from the server for all aircraft.

and then let us all know how you get on ?

N.B. I would not recommend that anyone else do this - having rashly done so myself, I'm currently looking at blank aircraft types on the radar screen and the aircraft list for around half of my network flights.

AirNav, can you please clarify what steps other than the above should users be taking at the moment, if any, in respect of downloading aircraft data from the server ?
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Runway 31 on April 19, 2010, 09:38:00 AM
You were looking for testers for your product Dave, seems like a good opportunity to try using it or Database explorer to update manually.

Click onto the blank flight and force the update.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: abrad41 on April 19, 2010, 10:03:46 AM
As I said In a previous thread

Quote
abrad41
Sr. Member

Posts: 476



      Re: New Server Database Populate Routine
« Reply #17 on: 13 April 2010, 14:26:29 » Quote Modify Remove 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote
The next stages will be to have a database which has a update/refresh proceadure and also allow the certain rows to be marked so they are not updated or refreshed, incase a customer is adding data manually that is not in our central database.

I think I shell be waiting until the above is complete before doing anything with my Navdata file, I have done a lot of manual updating of my database.

Even GAS don't have all the details of everything, I use a combination of GAS, Airframes etc etc to get all of my information.

Airnav - Can I just say (From the statment above), there is no way I am knocking what you are doing, you are moving things in the right direction - Thank you for that. I just find the combination of all the sites helps me.

Andy

Andy
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: tarbat on April 19, 2010, 10:41:25 AM
However yes, a clean of your NavData database would force it to get fresh data from the server for all aircraft.
N.B. I would not recommend that anyone else do this - having rashly done so myself, I'm currently looking at blank aircraft types on the radar screen and the aircraft list for around half of my network flights.

Dave, surely you took a backup before cleaning out your database, so you can simply restore the navdata.db3 database can't you?  There's no way I would delete details of the thousands of aircraft in my databases without taking a backup first.

But yes, the use of "..." in the AT field is regrettable, and I for one won't be cleaning out my database until that particular bug is fixed.  Airnav, can't you simply get the AT field from GAS?
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 19, 2010, 12:18:04 PM
You were looking for testers for your product Dave, seems like a good opportunity to try using it or Database explorer to update manually.

Well I had put development on hold as it was beginning to look like AirNav were making progress on the database themselves.  But we're now told that the issue needs a new release of RadarBox, with - as yet - no promise date or ETA, so I'll get back to work on my utility in the meantime.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: NF2G on April 20, 2010, 01:41:18 AM
Regarding time sync for MLAT:

There are utilities for Windows PCs that will keep the local PC synchronized to a reference standard via NTP at any desired interval.  The one I use is called D4.  Such synchronization is required for some digital modes on ham radio that need sender and receiver to be using precisely the same time.

Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 20, 2010, 07:12:19 AM
Regarding time sync for MLAT:

There are utilities for Windows PCs that will keep the local PC synchronized to a reference standard via NTP at any desired interval.  The one I use is called D4.  Such synchronization is required for some digital modes on ham radio that need sender and receiver to be using precisely the same time.

Sorry, but those utilities are useless for MLat, for the simple reason that the PC doesn't have a precise enough built-in clock.

Think about it - even if your PC clock were accurate to a thousandth of a second, that still represents nearly a 200 mile margin of error for an MLat plot.  The SBS/PlanePlotter architecture only gets round that limitation by using the 20MHz clock tick inside the SBS box itself - where two synchronised boxes can locate a hyperbola to within about 50 feet (although the synchronisation presents its own challenges).

We're all waiting with bated breath for AirNav to tell us how (and when) they are going to do MLat, but I'm sure they will be able to confirm, without giving anything away, that it's not going to be based solely on the clock inside your PC.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: tarbat on April 20, 2010, 07:15:59 AM
I'm betting that it will be GPS based.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Jeremy on April 20, 2010, 08:13:22 AM
Here we go again!
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 20, 2010, 08:49:51 AM
I'm betting that it will be GPS based.

Yes, I would put money on that too.

Can anyone who knows about these things advise whether a GPS clock would need to be connected directly to, or integrated with, RadarBox - or would a separate device linked via USB to the PC work ?

I'm guessing that the latter arrangement might have latency issues which would make it difficult to apply a precise timestamp to a specific transmission, which is obviously needed for MLat.

While clearly we can only speculate at the moment, it would be useful to be able to predict whether we're looking at an add-on gizmo that works with existing RBs or a brand-new, MLat-enabled Mark II RadarBox.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: Hawkeye on April 20, 2010, 09:38:06 AM
Yep,
Here we go again.
Sorry J, couldn't resist :-)
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: radarspotter10 on April 20, 2010, 09:57:38 AM
Yep,
Here we go again.
Sorry J, couldn't resist :-)

Here we go again.
(http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq269/Thebsrman/CF9-ZZZZ_lg.jpg)
Call me when the ash is gone.
From pat.
Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveG on April 20, 2010, 04:56:00 PM
I'm betting that it will be GPS based.

Yes, I would put money on that too.

Can anyone who knows about these things advise whether a GPS clock would need to be connected directly to, or integrated with, RadarBox - or would a separate device linked via USB to the PC work ?

I'm guessing that the latter arrangement might have latency issues which would make it difficult to apply a precise timestamp to a specific transmission, which is obviously needed for MLat.

While clearly we can only speculate at the moment, it would be useful to be able to predict whether we're looking at an add-on gizmo that works with existing RBs or a brand-new, MLat-enabled Mark II RadarBox.

Doing a few google searches it seems software GPS Time systems used with an external GPS (USB or Serial connected) unit will provide the PC with GPS times.  This is not my area so if someone that knows more can do a google and let us know.

But guessing out loud, would that not be good enough, suppose it depends on any time lag between RB Box receiving signal and PC displaying on screen, but that could only be ms!

Can't see (and hope not) that it will require a whole new Radarbox unit, I know that would be the best option but it would also be rather expensive for one extra feature if you already own a RB.

Title: Re: Plane plotter and Airnav
Post by: DaveReid on April 20, 2010, 05:10:39 PM
Can't see (and hope not) that it will require a whole new Radarbox unit, I know that would be the best option but it would also be rather expensive for one extra feature if you already own a RB.

How about a USB GPS unit that sits between RadarBox and the PC ?  That way, RadarBox could interrogate the GPS directly without the slow PC clock being in the loop.

I'm not a hardware guru, so I have no idea whether this is feasible or not, but as you say, it might be one way to avoid the requirement for a complete new RadarBox unit.