AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: tornado on January 17, 2010, 12:30:27 AM
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Hi,
Just wondering how many people use planer plotter with the Airnav box?
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Looked at it , not sure what it's supposed to do or how to work/install it so gave it a miss. Unless anyone else can provide details
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Hi,
Just wondering how many people use planer plotter with the Airnav box?
I do. Its multilateration feature gives users the only way to track non-positional aircraft and display them on the map. Full details are provided on the COAA website at:
http://www.coaa.co.uk/planeplotter.htm
and there are instructions on installation here:
http://planeplotter.pbworks.com/
Tom
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I'm a long time user, supporter and beta tester of PlanePlotter. It takes a bit of setting up, but it's a very nice add-on for RadarBox and a good stand-alone when I have access to the internet, but not to my RB.
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Yes, bought PP and have master user so can Mlat too.
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It takes a bit of setting up,
Masterpiece of understatement there my friend. Did for me away completely.
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Sorry guys - "instructions on installation" - I dont have a degree in quantum physics , having read the instructions I dont even know how to start...... no wiser .....not for the feint hearted , I'll give it a miss unfotunately !!!
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Trouble is, ANRB is just so easy to set up, and use, that everything else just feels too difficult and clunky for us non-IT types.
Like others on here, I gave it a try, but my lack of IT capability was no match for its installation requirements; all I managed to achieve was a mess.... :o(
This is NOT a criticism of PP; I've seen it used properly and was very impressed; I'm just too thick, sadly....
Dave
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You don't need IT capability, just read the help and the wiki.
Maybe you have to read it twice, but everyone can install/configure PlanePlotter.
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I also found this far to complexe. But it looks a good product and the fact that you can track and view non ADSB aircraft is the great pull to download it. Just have to be a bit switched on !!!.
Steve.
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Well, I consider myself PC literate, but it took even me a couple of hours to realise that I had to tick a box label "SBS1 Raw Data" to get multilateration working with my Radarbox.
Why on earth you have to tell PP that you have an SBS-1 to get it working with a Radarbox, I really don't understand. There are some serious usability issues around configuring Planeplotter,
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I don't think it is too difficult to set up in its simplest form
To get mine goingI used
http://www.mantma.co.uk/pp_misc.html
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Whilst reading this thread has not helped me set up Planeplotter, I have been somewhat reassured that I'm not the total thicko I thought I was.
Thanks for that at least, guys :)
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Well, I consider myself PC literate, but it took even me a couple of hours to realise that I had to tick a box label "SBS1 Raw Data" to get multilateration working with my Radarbox.
Why on earth you have to tell PP that you have an SBS-1 to get it working with a Radarbox, I really don't understand. There are some serious usability issues around configuring Planeplotter,
You don't have to tell it you are using an SBS-1. Unless you have an old version the setting in the Mode-S input box is 'SBS1/RBv3 tcp' and under 'Options/Mode-S receiver' you select 'Airnav Radarbox'. Simple - and it's all in the help file.
The only difficult part of setting up PP for some people is when you want to use mutliateration as a Master User or as a Ground Station (only with SBS) when you have to configure your router to receive data packets from a UDP port. However there is plenty of help available from the user group.
Considering it's the ONLY application in the world allowing you to track non-positional aircraft (it does not even need an RB or SBS for this), its built-in detailed worldwide map, ability to incorporate your own charts, maps, waypoints and navaids and its low one-off cost, it represents superb value for money and is well worth the small effort to get it running. Oh! I forgot to mention the free network - growing every day.
Tom
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Not used Planeplotter before, but have just downloaded it and looking forward to making my own mind up as to how hard or easy it is to install - will report back in due course!
Have followed the link that 'bearcat' suggested - useful stuff.
Viking9's comments about incorporating your own maps is what has tempted me to have a play.
Cheers - must go!
Chris
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Considering it's the ONLY application in the world allowing you to track non-positional aircraft (it does not even need an RB or SBS for this), its built-in detailed worldwide map, ability to incorporate your own charts, maps, waypoints and navaids and its low one-off cost, it represents superb value for money and is well worth the small effort to get it running. Oh! I forgot to mention the free network - growing every day.
Tom
PlanePlotter is a one-off payment, but MLAT is a small annual subscription if you are not providing data to aid the MLAT. RadarBox can share data with the PP network, but not in a way that allows you to help with MLAT.
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You don't have to tell it you are using an SBS-1.
Yes you do. To get MLAT to work, you have to tick the "SBS1 Raw Data" box in IO Settings, even if you don't have an SBS-1 to provide raw data!!
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Getting confused with the technical banter between Allocator and Tarbat (about MLAT)!
On a more basic level I got Planeplotter up and running within an hour this evening.
Hate Windows Vista with a passion - thought I'd installed it into a root directory rather than under Program Files. So struggled to find the sub directory to copy a map to.
Eventually copied over a map of the UK to the correct subdirectory.
Looks good - have zoomed-in map of the midlands running on ANRB on my 22" external monitor and a general overview of the same planes (locally received) on Planespotter running on laptop - with a larger (more detailed map of the UK).
Only problem I have, so far, is that when I click on a plane icon on the planeplotter screen, it says no-reg.
Is this simply because I've not registered yet - or do I have to tinker with settings?
I've not touched anything yet - simply entered home location (brilliantly simply via installation process), copied across a relevant map and clicked on Process/Start.
Impressed so far - will play with further more localised maps.
Chris
PS Must play further with making screenshots across dual monitors...
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Chris,
As PP was originally designed to run with SBS-1 it uses the Basestation.sqb database. You can download my copy here: http://www.viking9.co.uk/basestation.sqb
You just need to save it to your COAA/Planeplotter folder and restart PlanePlotter. You will find that you will not see many NO-REG. If you do see one just right-click on the entry and it will automatically update from www.airframe.org.
Tom
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PlanePlotter is a one-off payment, but MLAT is a small annual subscription if you are not providing data to aid the MLAT. RadarBox can share data with the PP network, but not in a way that allows you to help with MLAT.
Not according to the COAA website which says, "If you are a PlanePlotter licence holder but are not an SBS1/SBS1e user, or if there are reasons why you cannot contribute raw data regularly, you can request temporary Master User status for an experimental period of 21 days using the link below. If you request the 21 day trial, you are not committed to paying any fee unless you want to continue to use it after the end of 21 days. After that, you may choose to pay a small fee of Euro 12.00 (plus VAT in EU countries) to continue as a Master User."
No mention of an annual fee, though I would be very happy to pay it.
Incidentally, RB users who are Master Users can contribute to Mlat in the latest version. When they track an aircraft using Mlat that aircraft's icon along with Hex code, c/s, reg, alt, GS, squawk and track is then shown on the maps of other Master Users.
Tom
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You get 21 days MLAT free. After the 21 days, unless you are an SBS-1 Master User providing data for the MLAT process, you have to pay - I do pay 2 subscriptions for 2 PC's, although Bev let me activate a 3rd PC as I'm only ever using one at a time.
I don't use my SBS-1 any more - can't be bothered to go through all that setting up again - so I happily pay the 2 annual fees to COAA.
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I got no such email from Bev. Perhaps as I was one of the earliest users he decided not to charge me. I have been using three instances of it, on a PC and two laptops and I have not been asked to pay any more.
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The process works like this:
- You go for the 21 trial and register. Your PC is activated for MLAT
- After 21 days, when you try to MLAT, you get a message in PP to say that your 21 days has expired
- This is the confusing bit! You then click on the 21 day trial application again and it takes you go to a page that says that it will cost 12 Euros(?) to activate.
- This happens for every PC when the 21 day trial expires. There is no way of activating MLAT on more that one PC without going through this process on each PC - other than emailing Bev and appealing to his better nature.
Bev did activate my 3rd PC and set the expiry date of the other 2 as the date of the latest subscription, but he didn't offer a refund for my second subscription as I thought that he might. I had read on the PP forum that you only needed to pay one sub to activate MLAT on more than one PC - just like the way that with PP you can get extra activation codes for additional PC's using the standard PP functions.
Anyway, a small fee to pay for the extra functionality and I like to support innovation.
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Chris,
As PP was originally designed to run with SBS-1 it uses the Basestation.sqb database. You can download my copy here: http://www.viking9.co.uk/basestation.sqb
You just need to save it to your COAA/Planeplotter folder and restart PlanePlotter. You will find that you will not see many NO-REG. If you do see one just right-click on the entry and it will automatically update from www.airframe.org.
Tom
Tom - sincere thanks for that!!!
After downloading your kindly shared Basestation.sqb database, and copying across to my Planeplotter directory, I initially saw no improvement in the amount of no-reg results I was getting.
I then had a 'play' and realised that I needed to go to 'options' dropdown menu and select directories. This gave me an option to tell which directory should look in for my newly downloaded Basestation.sqb
Then shut planeplotter down and restarted.
Excellent - not had a 'no-reg' since!
Not had chance to play with 'right-clicking' options yet.
Must go, but will register Planeplotter before trial expires (and after I'm paid...) if only for the option to use downloaded maps.
Cheers
Chris
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Incidentally, RB users who are Master Users can contribute to Mlat in the latest version. When they track an aircraft using Mlat that aircraft's icon along with Hex code, c/s, reg, alt, GS, squawk and track is then shown on the maps of other Master Users.
I've read and reread this but I still don't understand - surely RB doesn't provide the data necessary to make any contribution to MLat ?
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I've read and reread this but I still don't understand - surely RB doesn't provide the data necessary to make any contribution to MLat ?
Perhaps the suggestion is that non-SBS-1 owners can contribute to MLAT by turning on "Allow Remote Mlat", which may then let their PP be used to calculate MLAT positions, using data from other SBS-1 users over the PP network.
However, I haven't been able to get an answer to that question, whether RB owners should turn on "Allow Remote Mlat". I suspect that even with that option ticked, the non-SBS-1 user still won't contribute to MLAT.
As always, getting a straight answer to a simple question gets bogged down in side-issues on the PP forum. Unfortunately, the main focus is on supporting Ground Station users.
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Dave,
PP now has the ability to show a non-positional aircraft which is being tracked by a Master User (with or without an RB) to be seen on other users' screens with all the flight details previously seen only by that requesting user. So you can in fact see several aircraft that are being mlat'd tracking on the map at one time.
You do not have to have an RB to do it but it is desirable to be able to contribute data to the network. For example, if an aircraft is out of range of a certain user or users and I make the first mlat request then the aircraft will appear on every use's screen.
I hope that makes sense.
Tom
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Tom, are you saying that Radarbox owners using Planeplotter should tick the "Allow Remote Mlat" box? I might have misunderstood you, but I was told to NOT tick the box on the PP forum.
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You do not have to have an RB to do it but it is desirable to be able to contribute data to the network. For example, if an aircraft is out of range of a certain user or users and I make the first mlat request then the aircraft will appear on every use's screen.
I hope that makes sense.
Yes, I think so.
Whether you're an RB user or not is incidental (although if you are it may alert you to the presence of a non-positional aircraft that you might wish to MLat with PP). But as a Master User, any aircraft you MLat becomes visible to other PP users.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Yes you do. To get MLAT to work, you have to tick the "SBS1 Raw Data" box in IO Settings, even if you don't have an SBS-1 to provide raw data!!
Right Tarbat, read this very carefully. I DO NOT have "SBS1 Raw Data" box in IO Settings checked and I have been a Master User since before it was generally available and mlat some ten to twenty US mil aircraft most days. Some of the features included in later versions of PP were at my suggestion.
Regarding remote mlat, it's quite simple. You can use mlat without a virtual radar, so when you make an mlat request it is sent across the network. If you are a Master User the option "Allow Remote Mlat" is in the Options..I/O settings dialog in the Input section. If this option is checked, then the server will invite PlanePlotter to perform an Mlat on a target that is "Mlattable" but not currently being "Mlatted". The request will only be made if the machine is not in use (no recent user interaction with PlanePlotter), no other Mlat is currently in progress and only if the instance of PP is currently receiving messages from the "positionless" aircraft in question.
The intention is that, with enough users choosing to enable this option, most potentially Mlattable aircraft will start to appear on the charts of Master Users without users themselves having to initiate the Mlat requests.
Finally, I have never found either John Locker or Bev to be biased towards helping only Ground Stations. Of course it is very important that we have maximum GS coverage, but Master Users are important too for reasons I gave above and I have always had the greatest cooperation from and assistance from both men, usually with instant responses - unlike some organisations I could mention.
Tom
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Yes you do. To get MLAT to work, you have to tick the "SBS1 Raw Data" box in IO Settings, even if you don't have an SBS-1 to provide raw data!!
Right Tarbat, read this very carefully. I DO NOT have "SBS1 Raw Data" box in IO Settings checked and I have been a Master User since before it was generally available and mlat some ten to twenty US mil aircraft most days.
You're quoting a post from yesterday. Since then I've been told to tick the "UDP/IP data from net" box, even though the help says that option is only to be use "from a remote PC running PlanePlotter" Nothing to do with MLAT, but evidently this box must be ticked to get MLAT working. Before I was told to do that, the only way I could get MLAT working was to tick "SBS1 Raw Data", which also made MLAT work. What the difference is between the two boxes, I have no idea!!
Regarding remote mlat, it's quite simple. You can use mlat without a virtual radar, so when you make an mlat request it is sent across the network. If you are a Master User the option "Allow Remote Mlat" is in the Options..I/O settings dialog in the Input section. If this option is checked, then the server will invite PlanePlotter to perform an Mlat on a target that is "Mlattable" but not currently being "Mlatted".
So why was I told, on the PP forum, that I shouldn't tick that box unless I'm a Ground Station? I'm happy to contribute to MLAT calculations, but was told not to :(
Finally, I have never found either John Locker or Bev to be biased towards helping only Ground Stations.
It's more to do with the documentation. Try HELP - CONTENTS - TUTORIALS - Multilateration with SBS-1. Firstly, why only help about using MLAT with SBS-1? Where's the tutorial for setting up MLAT with Radarbox, or without a VR at all?
Secondly, there's sections 1, 2, 3, and 4 all about Ground Stations. And just section 5 for Master Users, and that section doesn't even explain which IO options to select to get MLAT working. What's the point of a tutorial that doesn't say what IO options are needed?
When I've asked these questions on the PP forum, I get conflicting advise. Tick this box, don't tick that box. I was even told that I can find the location of Ground Stations using the OSM button in Planeplotter!!!!
All I'm looking for is a definitive guide to setting up Planeplotter for MLAT as a Master User using Radarbox.
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Just thought you chaps would like to see my PP screen - filtered by US Mil flagged ac only. As you can see there are two aircraft showing positions, the top one has been mlatted by user dW. The second was remote mlatted by my PP (user kx - the first character is replaced by an '*' in my PP) whilst I was busy firing off messages to this and another forum. The third has not been mlatted.
Tom
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To Tarbat and all who are experiencing problems;
First let me say that Bev, the brains behind PP and Mlat has been in Australia for a while now. He is a bit of a one -man band and I think he has done a tremendous job in getting PP and mlat to where it is now in just a few short months - the ONLY system available on the amateur market that allows non-positional Mode-S equipped aircraft to be tracked. And at a modest cost. (Imaginge what you would pay for it if some commercial organisation had thought of it first?).
Admittedly, sometimes the documentation falls behind the application features, but there are a number of sources of information to be found on the web. Here's a place to start:
http://www.mantma.co.uk/pp_faq1.html#latest%20Peter%20Leadbeater
Some problems just cannot be sorted, such as the inability to make early Vodafone mobile broadband dongles work with mlat, yet the '3' dongle works straight out of the box without requiring any ports to be opened.
If you really want to track Mode-S equipped aircraft I urge you to persevere. It is well worth the hair pulling. I look forward to getting up every morning and seeing all those lovely mil aircraft tracking across the screen.
Tom
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Tom, you're obviously a PP expert. Can you answer the question I keep asking but never get an answer. What boxes in IO Settings should I tick when using MLAT with Radarbox, and why? (ie. what function is enabled/disabled by each tick box).
For example, the tutorial on ManTMA says "Remote Mlat - This is an entirely new feature whereby users who are GS+MU can perform continuous automatic Mlat requests when their machine is not otherwise occupied". Now, I'm not a GS+MU user, I'm just a Master User. So I guess I shouldn't tick that box, but then others say I should to allow my PC and PP to perform MLATs. Please explain.
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Tarbat,
I don't think I'm an expert but I am an experienced user. Though I have not specifically asked the question, from what John Locker has told me and from my own experience the GS+MU bit is wrong. For a start you just have to be a Master User to initiate Mlat requests, so why would you need to be a Ground Station for your PP to initiate a Remote Mlat which is just an Mlat request performed by the software?
I have the Remote Mlat box ticked and, as you saw from my screenshot last night, my PP appears to be doing remote mlats. I assume it is my machine because I am showing as the main user.
I have attached a screenshot of my i/o settings.
One thing I should mention is the OSM map. This can not be seen in the trial version of PP as the required area of interest is downloaded from the network each time you click on the OSM icon. When you have paid the PP subscription the map is available, but be aware that each map segment downloaded is stored in the PlanePlotter/Chart Files folder. These .jpg files build up so you might want to delete them from time to time.
Tom
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Though I have not specifically asked the question, from what John Locker has told me and from my own experience the GS+MU bit is wrong.
It was John Locker that told me NOT to tick the "Allow remote Mlat" box in the first place!! See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/planeplotter/message/30503
To quote:
"As a download only Master User [ I know you share by radar box but thats a different issue ] you dont need to tick either "SBS1 raw data" or "Allow remote Mlat""
Can you understand my confusion? Where are the definitive instructions on what IO settings are needed for MLAT MU?
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Tarbat,
Sorry for the delay in replying. At this time of the morning I'm working harder than the average ATC bod, tracking RCH ac and reporting them to Reach Hunters.
Having read that thread I see that you said "Question. To see any aircraft where continuous MLAT is available, do I tick the "Allow Remote Mlat" option or not." So you were asking about straightforward mlatting and I assume that's what John was answering, so his answer to that was that you did not need to tick that box, which is true.
I have looked at the documentation which is downloaded with the latest version of PP and I must admit it leaves one none the wiser regarding remote mlatting but I do think my interpretation is correct.
If you use my settings are you able to mlat aircraft?
Tom
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Tom, I'm just trying to increase the possibilities of me seeing an aircraft MLAT'ed by someone else, without having to MLAT it myself. I called that "continuous MLAT", maybe that's the wrong terminology.
My guess now is that the "Allow Remote Mlat" has nothing to do with increasing my chances of seeing an aircraft MLAT'ed by someone else, without having to MLAT it myself. Surely Remote Mlat will only work if I can provide raw data?
I just wish we didn't have to "guess" about how to configure PP for MLAT.
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Am I being particularly naive but have we not reached the stage with PP where it should be possible to download and pay for a complete working program?
Data share tickbox, 7day free trial, annual subscriptions, whatever you like but surely in 2010 our software expectations now exceed this type of DIY geek-only application - especially bearing in mind the example of the (relatively) simple Radarbox?
One highly frustrated Bratters.
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Tarbat,
This is my understanding of the current situation.
With the latest version of PP the server will feed info on non-positional aircraft which have been mlatted by other MUs to your PC. I'm not absolutely sure whether you have to be an MU for the server to do this or whether all users get it.
You are right about "Remote Mlat" having nothing to do with that. As I said previously, you do not have to provide raw data in order to make an mlat request. You are simply asking the servers to provide the timing information from those Ground Stations that are 'seeing' that aircraft, do the sums and send the info to your PC.
So, it would follow that exactly the same procedure takes place with your PC when PP is left running unattended except it's the software that picks a likely aircraft and sends the mlat request without human intervention. You don't need to send raw data in the first instance so why would you need to send it in the second?
I agree that the documentation could be more comprehensive but I guess that's the price we have to pay for a very low budget, high tech piece of software which is the product of one very clever man who has another business to run.
Have you tried selecting 'View/Aircraft without positions"? If I do that now I'm see twelve aircraft showing info, which means they are all ones mlatted by others.
Tom
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So, it would follow that exactly the same procedure takes place with your PC when PP is left running unattended except it's the software that picks a likely aircraft and sends the mlat request without human intervention.
I thought it was the PP server that decides which aircraft to auto-MLAT. If I'm not a GS, will the PP server even ask my PP to auto-mlat a particular aircraft? My understanding was that it's only Ground Stations that will receive a request from the PP server to auto-Mlat.
The release notes say this about remote Mlat - "the choice of target and selection of users is done centrally". Question - will the PP server ever ask my non-GS PP to auto-Mlat?
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Am I being particularly naive but have we not reached the stage with PP where it should be possible to download and pay for a complete working program?
Data share tickbox, 7day free trial, annual subscriptions, whatever you like but surely in 2010 our software expectations now exceed this type of DIY geek-only application - especially bearing in mind the example of the (relatively) simple Radarbox?
One highly frustrated Bratters.
Bratters,
In a nutshell - yes, you are being very naive. As I said previously, this is mainly a one man operation. He writes the software himself, provides a network which allows you to see aircraft outside of your area, one which is expanding rapidly and has a fraction of the downtime of a similar large corporate run one. It is also MUCH cheaper to subscribe to and doesn't even need any hardware.
Bev Ewen-Smith has single-handedly brought to the enthusiast (or at least anyone with the interest and enthusiasm to persevere) a system which allows him or her to track previously untrackable aircraft. The fact that he has another job - he owns and runs an astronomical observatory and produces lots of other applications too - probably limits the time he can spend on this application.
When you consider that AirNav, despite its resources, has not been able to fix its superb ANRB software so you can see all of the items on a 1024 x 760 laptop screen (the goddam industry standard) you may appreciate the problems Bev has in developing the application so that anyone can just turn it on and do everything they want with no effort at all.
I for one am very happy to exert a little sweat rather than pay oodles of cash to some multinational conglomorate for the same privilege.
Tom
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I thought it was the PP server that decides which aircraft to auto-MLAT. If I'm not a GS, will the PP server even ask my PP to auto-mlat a particular aircraft? My understanding was that it's only Ground Stations that will receive a request from the PP server to auto-Mlat.
The release notes say this about remote Mlat - "the choice of target and selection of users is done centrally". Question - will the PP server ever ask my non-GS PP to auto-Mlat?
Tarbat,
The simple answer is that I'm not sure what the sequence is. I have definitely seen in some reference to Remote Mlat..."if you are a Master User the Remote Mlat box will appear in the i/o window" or words to that effect. Sure, the server must know that your copy of PP is active and that you have not made a request for n second/mins. Quite whether PP sends a message or the server interrogates it and then decides to mlat one of the aircraft I don't know. But then it does not matter, does it. The important thing is that it works.
Have you actually tried looking at your non-positional ac view to see if there are any aircraft with positions shown on it?
I'm quite busy now tracking a KC-135 from EGUN which is on its way to refuel some A-10s and a Herc.
Tom
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Actually that should have been an RC-135W, not a Herc.
Tom
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Have you actually tried looking at your non-positional ac view to see if there are any aircraft with positions shown on it?
I regularly check that view, and no, I don't see any at the moment. I have seen a couple earlier, with lat/long showing and Rep = 9, but when I click on them the map pans to an area of the map with no aircraft in it :(
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Tarbat,
Can you see RCH353 which is near Lyneham?
Tom
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No, can't see that one.
But yes, if I pan to the south of England, I can see MLat'ed aircraft, but that's of no use to me up here in the far north.
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No, can't see that one.
But yes, if I pan to the south of England, I can see MLat'ed aircraft, but that's of no use to me up here in the far north.
So the system is working then. Just no ac up your way that others are mlatting.
Tom
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So the system is working then. Just no ac up your way that others are mlatting.
Correct. And now confirmed on the PP forum that only Ground Stations will ever be asked to perform a remote MLAT, so no point in ticking the "Allow Remote Mlat" box. I thought it would have been useful to allow Master Users to perform remote MLATs to increase the number of auto-MLAT'ed aircraft, but it doesn't work like that.
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I've just seen John's answer to you on the forum and I cannot understand it. For example, forgetting about mlat for a moment, when a PP user sizes their map to a certain area, PP will only download to his screen those aircraft that are within the area of the map - try it. We also know this is true because Bev has written in the past that having your map covering a very large area increases the load on the server as it has to download more aircraft to you.The same when that user selects an area and clicks on OGM. The server sends only that map area to his PC. So where does raw data come in?
The server knows which sharers are logged on to PP and knows which area they are looking at. It therefore knows which aircraft are being seen in their area, because their SBS-1 or RB is sending that info. It does not have to be raw does it? Otherwise how would you be able to see what aircraft I'm seeing (denoted my share code in the User column).
Now, considering Remote Mlat. If the server knows which non-positional aircraft I'm seeing why can it not send an mlat request when it sees my PP idle for a while. I just cannot see the need for the Ground Station is except to supply the raw data required for the server to do the calculations and send the info to mine and other PCs focussed on that area.
Incidentally I have found the thread where it is mentioned that only other Master Users and Ground Stations can see shared Mlatted targets. I'm still looking for the reference to Master Users and Remote Mlat.
BTW, I've just looked at PP which has been idling whilst I've been doing other things and there are two targets, a C-5 and a C-17 where I'm shown as the user and they are mlatted. I didn't request it.
Tom
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Now, considering Remote Mlat. If the server knows which non-positional aircraft I'm seeing why can it not send an mlat request when it sees my PP idle for a while.
Exactly my point. Instead of just a handful of Ground Stations performing automatic MLATs, we could have a whole network of 1000s of PP instances calculating MLATs. I'm not sure Bev and John understand what I'm saying :(
Anyway, I've spent most of this morning CTRL-clicking on aircraft in my area, and not a single MLAT success :( It certainly doesn't live up to my expectations.
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Tarbat,
If you look at the top of the PP screen when you Ctrl-left click you should see a message advising why you cannot mlat that particular aircraft.
Tom
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If you look at the top of the PP screen when you Ctrl-left click you should see a message advising why you cannot mlat that particular aircraft.
In most cases I have to wait for the 65 seconds to process before it tells me MLAT can't get a fix. No message at the top of the PP screen. It gets very frustrating clicking on an aircraft, waiting 60 seconds, getting no useful result from MLAT, and then having to try another aircraft. Not what I was expecting at all :(
Anyway, thanks for your help.
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A quick question, have you ever managed to mlat an aircraft?
Tom
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It may be stating the obvious (or possibly not), but if you can't see one or more ADS-B aircraft on your PP screen in locations where they are likely to be within range of 3 or more GS users (given that you know where they are), then attempting to MLat any positionless aircraft is likely to be a complete waste of time.
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A quick question, have you ever managed to mlat an aircraft?
Yes. But not an aircraft I wanted to MLAT, just high-flying transatlantic jets. I read a post by satcom on the other forum a while ago that MLAT works down to around 3000ft across the UK, but I can't seem to MLAT on anything below about FL200.
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Yes. But not an aircraft I wanted to MLAT, just high-flying transatlantic jets. I read a post by satcom on the other forum a while ago that MLAT works down to around 3000ft across the UK, but I can't seem to MLAT on anything below about FL200.
Well that's a bit of a broad statement. The aircraft has to be within range of enough Ground Stations for mlat to work. If the ground stations cannot see the ac then it won't work.
Tom
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Repeat after me:
line-of-sight
line-of-sight
line-of-sight...
:-)
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Gosh - MLAT sounds very complex - not for me!
If I'd read this thread for the first time this evening, I'd have been put off even giving Planeplotter a fair trial!
Would just like to reassure any RB user thinking of trying PP - go for the free trial - it's not as complex as it sounds for basic functionality!
Simples really:
1) Download and install the software (helps if you have rough co-ords for your home location). Was impressed at the ability to fine tune your actual location during the installation process
2) Fire the program up (after starting ANRB) - nothing much will happen until you click on dropdown menu 'Process'! Just click on start...
3) A bit of Googling will find some charts and databases to get you started.
----------------------
Still playing with basic functions myself - but have just found the option that guarantees I will be be registering software soon:
Namely the 'OSM' button that I randomly clicked on - just to see what it did!
This downloaded a jpg map (centered on cursor - c/o OpenStreetMap)
Can save up to four maps in shortcuts (A,B.C and D) - more slots would be nice!
Now have best of both worlds - have ANRB running on 22" monitor (big enough for split screen between radar and MyFlights details AND PP running on 15.4" laptop plotting planes on a conventional road map.
So when planes route via VELAG into East Mids or via Honiley into BHX, I can now relate this into locations I can relate to to!
In summary, MLAT complications can wait - don't be put off - if you want to see your received (ADS-B) planes on a 'conventional' map (as I did!), this is worth a try!
Chris
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Chris,
No one was trying to put anyone off. The thread was dealing with very real probs experienced by some people using mlat to track mode-S aircraft onscreen, nothing to do with straightforward PP.
Incidentally, even straight PP ain't as simple as you think. For example; DO NOT use A,B,C, or D for storing maps or graphs. They are for storing configurations. If you store a map there PP will change back to the configuration that was in force when you stored it. The correct place to store maps and graphs is Options/Chart/Define/Quickchart and Choose 1 to 10. When you click on a Quickchart icon it will only change the map stored there and nothing else.
See the Wiki at http://planeplotter.pbworks.com/Using+the+Save+and+Load+feature for a fuller explanation.
Tom
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Tom,
Just saw your message as I was about to a-bed.
Didn't intend to imply you were putting anyone off - to the contrary, with your help, I've managed to get started with PP and am impressed so far - was just trying to encourage others to make a start - without getting bogged down in the technicalities...
Many thanks for your advice as to how to use storage slots A,B,C and D - ie for configurations not maps/charts!
Will follow up your recommended wiki link over the weekend.
Going forward, perhaps we need to have a separate thread for 'advanced' mlat problems etc and another one for PP newbies?
Cheers
Chris
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Chris,
Good to know I've been a help to you.
The best place for discussion of PP and mlat is on the PlanePlotter group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/planeplotter/
The program author Bev and many other experienced PP users are on there daily and all the latest announcements of new versions and bugs (very few) appear there.
Besides, I have an SBS-1er arriving today - I need one to become a ground station - and I shall be selling my RadarBox, so I shall not be around here for much longer.
Tom
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Tom
Sad to hear you are selling the Radarbox, but very glad you are getting a SBS-1er and becoming a ground station, will help me with the Mlat on my pp from Mildenhall and Lakenheath area.
Good luck mate with the SBS and speak to you soon.
Andy
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Keep the posts about RadarBox please, if you want to discuss PP directly use the forum link provided by Viking9.
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Hi Tom, for what you'll get for the RB, I'd hang on to it as a back up!
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Chris,
Good to know I've been a help to you.
The best place for discussion of PP and mlat is on the PlanePlotter group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/planeplotter/
Tom
Many thanks Tom
Have just applied for a yahoo groups account and membership to the PP group via the link you provided above.
Look forward to becoming an active member of this forum too.
Chris
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Chris,
I look forward to seeing you there.
Tom
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One thing that may not be obvious from the description of Planeplotter is that you may find you're only getting updates from their network every 4 minutes. If, like me, you just look at the screen and don't interact with Planeplotter, then you're seeing network plots that are at least 4 minutes old. I guess that's all you get for €30.
To quote:
If PP appears to be running unattended (no user interface activity for half an hour or more), the downloads will only occur at four minute intervals, rather than the customary one minute intervals.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/planeplotter/message/31769
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You don't have to tell it you are using an SBS-1.
Yes you do. To get MLAT to work, you have to tick the "SBS1 Raw Data" box in IO Settings, even if you don't have an SBS-1 to provide raw data!!
MLat works perfectly for me Tarbat, I do not have the SBS-1 Raw Data box ticked in the IO settings, because like you my RB cannot provide it anyway.
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Incidentally, RB users who are Master Users can contribute to Mlat in the latest version. When they track an aircraft using Mlat that aircraft's icon along with Hex code, c/s, reg, alt, GS, squawk and track is then shown on the maps of other Master Users.
I've read and reread this but I still don't understand - surely RB doesn't provide the data necessary to make any contribution to MLat ?
No, but once it has received the necessary data to plot a positionless target on the map it will then upload this data in the same way as other incoming port 30003 data is uploaded to the PP server. That means that other people who are master users can then see the Mlatted aircraft on their maps.
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I've read and reread this but I still don't understand - surely RB doesn't provide the data necessary to make any contribution to MLat ?
No, but once it has received the necessary data to plot a positionless target on the map it will then upload this data in the same way as other incoming port 30003 data is uploaded to the PP server. That means that other people who are master users can then see the Mlatted aircraft on their maps.
Now I'm even more confused !
Surely RadarBox doesn't (yet) plot positionless aircraft on the map, nor does it output any positionless aircraft data that PP can use ?
Of course all that will presumably change when RadarBox MLat starts to ship ...
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MLat works perfectly for me Tarbat, I do not have the SBS-1 Raw Data box ticked in the IO settings
Already answered here - http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=4185.msg42280#msg42280
Surely RadarBox doesn't (yet) plot positionless aircraft on the map, nor does it output any positionless aircraft data that PP can use ?
Radarbox outputs positionless aircraft on port 30003, where Planeplotter can use it, and upload that to the server.
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I've read and reread this but I still don't understand - surely RB doesn't provide the data necessary to make any contribution to MLat ?
No, but once it has received the necessary data to plot a positionless target on the map it will then upload this data in the same way as other incoming port 30003 data is uploaded to the PP server. That means that other people who are master users can then see the Mlatted aircraft on their maps.
Now I'm even more confused !
Surely RadarBox doesn't (yet) plot positionless aircraft on the map, nor does it output any positionless aircraft data that PP can use ?
Of course all that will presumably change when RadarBox MLat starts to ship ...
You asked whether RB provided any data helping PP to Mlat, well it doesn't provide raw data of course, but it does provide some data on positionless aircraft which you can then use to identify whether an aircraft you make an Mlat request for is in range of your receiver.
I don't quite know what goes out on port 30003 for non-ADS-B aircraft, but there must be something as some of the positionless targets are shown with my sharer code in PP. I think that when a request is made the server knows who can see a given target and so it knows which GSs to pass the Mlat request to, the results then come back as peer to peer data.
Make any more sense now?
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MLat works perfectly for me Tarbat, I do not have the SBS-1 Raw Data box ticked in the IO settings
Already answered here - http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=4185.msg42280#msg42280
Surely RadarBox doesn't (yet) plot positionless aircraft on the map, nor does it output any positionless aircraft data that PP can use ?
Radarbox outputs positionless aircraft on port 30003, where Planeplotter can use it, and upload that to the server.
Yes to both, sorry I'm rather behind on these threads and didn't realise that later replies had clarified things.
On the remote Mlat front, it seems that additional checks are applied to the MLatability of targets before they are Mlatted, that means only GSs can be used because the raw data is part of that process.
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You asked whether RB provided any data helping PP to Mlat, well it doesn't provide raw data of course, but it does provide some data on positionless aircraft which you can then use to identify whether an aircraft you make an Mlat request for is in range of your receiver.
Yes, exactly. RB can alert the user to the presence of a positionless aircraft, but any such data that RB sends to PP makes no contribution to the process of MLat-ing said aircraft.
We got there in the end :-)
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Well I finally got around to installing PlanePlotter and have it setup to read data from my RB & ACARS data from my WiNRADiO.
Great to see that it properly supports the WR Virtual Soundcard unlike the AirNav ACARS Decoder...that program is long overdue an update. Any plans AirNav?
Like Tarbat I am somewhat underwhelmed with MLAT - unlike Tarbat I can at least see MLAT aircraft. Not sure why you can't Chris...surely it doesn't depend upon your location if there are Ground Stations out there that supply the data anyway?
It took me a day of CTRL-Clicking in vain on rare orange aircraft on the Chart as indicated from the various MLAT sources before I discovered I couldn't MLAT anything from the Chart and instead had to select the aircraft from the MLAT Possible list <blush>
Then you have the looong 60 second wait before the Chart springs to a part of the country not covered by a map to display the contact criss-crossed by a myriad of blue lines.
Once that is done how the hell do you close the MLAT request box as the Close gadget is ghosted out and it keeps reappearing??
I am also disappointed that I am unable to become a Ground Station as COAA/PP only accept data from the SBS1 - why is that because I thought that RB is now supposed to be 100% compatible with any Add-Ons?
I have registered PP but don't think I will subscribe to the MLAT option as it all seems very clunky to me.
The main reason I finally installed PP was to feed my data to Pink Fruit who have developed Plane Finder for the iPhone...
As others around here have mentioned it does take some setting up and getting your head around...even now I am not 100% that it is all working as I wish but I do know it is feeding data to PlaneFinder and I can assume PP as well according to the All Aircraft list where I can see my Sharing ID listed in most of the aircrift listed...
Regards,
-=Glyn=-
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I am also disappointed that I am unable to become a Ground Station as COAA/PP only accept data from the SBS1 - why is that because I thought that RB is now supposed to be 100% compatible with any Add-Ons?
No, RB is compatible with add-ons that are driven by the port 30003 TCP/IP socket output. I do wish AirNav would make that distinction clear.
That doesn't cover add-ons that interact with the database (like Active Display) or those that use raw packet and timing data direct from the SBS (like PP MLat ).
But we're now promised RadarBox MLat, so your disappointment should be short-lived.
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But we're now promised RadarBox MLat, so your disappointment should be short-lived.
"Shortlived" ........relative to what I wonder?
If there were a sweepstake for a non-beta oven ready MLat product, which side of Christmas would you put your money on Dave?
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Yeah well it threw me...not that it takes much to do so anyway!
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=4304.0
----------snip----------
RadarBox 100% Compatible with Add-On Applications
Did you know? AirNav RadarBox latest version is 100% compatible with all add-on exiting on the market.
This means that if you Upgrade from your present Virtual Radar to RadarBox you can continue to use the add-on applications you've been using for the last years.
----------snip----------
Maybe that should read 99% compatible then?
Or maybe written in 99% English! ;^)
<ducking>
So apart from PP MLAT are there any other Add-Ons that might not work with RB then Dave?
RadarBox MLAT?
Well I'm not holding my breath...I just wish AirNav would incorporate some of the other fundamental features they have been promising for years...I'm not going to mention proper multi-monitor support with undockable windows here because it is off-topic and I normally upset the natives and get flamed...<sigh>
Thanks & regards,
-=Glyn=-
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Multi monitor support was never promised Glyn, in fact if I remember correctly, AirNav said it was difficult and MIGHT consider it some time in the future.
Don't get confused between what people have ASKED for and what AN have said that they will look into :-)
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I thought he was not going to mention multi-monitor support?
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Multi monitor support was never promised Glyn, in fact if I remember correctly, AirNav said it was difficult and MIGHT consider it some time in the future.
Don't get confused between what people have ASKED for and what AN have said that they will look into :-)
You will excuse me for getting confused because even before I purchased my RB way back in July 2008;
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1099.msg8572#msg8572
And here the following month;
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1261.msg9387#msg9387
But please...I do not want this to start all over again and this thread was about PlanePlotter...
Regards,
-=Glyn=-
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OK, fair enough, I don't recall that post.