AirNav Systems Forum

AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: cool_1 on December 31, 2009, 05:52:57 PM

Title: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: cool_1 on December 31, 2009, 05:52:57 PM
Houston...we have a problem...

I have set up my new RadarBox - OK its actually a few miles South West of Exeter Airport (EGTE), with a generally good South West reception (I have had many flights going over all day from EasyJet, Ryan Air , British Airways, and Virgin etc). 
So far so good...

But now, after using for nearly a whole day, Ive noticed that there are NO Flybe flights showing up anywhere !?  This is ridiculous as they have been flying in and out all day, many within a few miles of my RadarBox.   

Is there a software bug here, or do they not transmit the same info as all other aircraft ???

This is VERY disappointing as the main reason I want to use this technology is to monitor local air traffic. (80% of local flights arriving / departing for me  , are Flybe !!!). 

Please can one of the site gurus clarrify the problem here please ?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: KILO21 on December 31, 2009, 06:12:04 PM
i've had a look in my log and have plenty of Flybe flights.  Flybe don't transmit ADS-B so they won't show up on the map,  however they will detected by your box and should show in your log.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Jeremy on December 31, 2009, 08:45:36 PM
I expect they will eventually have to have Mode-s so time will tell. Nice to have Exeter covered though (from an ex-east devon man).
J.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: anorak on January 01, 2010, 11:38:19 AM
Hi Cool_1, I`m up in North Devon and have Exeter covered on RB and my AOR 8200. Flybe show on screen but without position info as said before, but by listening in you can follow there progress, Air South West, Aurigny and Skybus all have the same "problem" to us.
Best wishes for the New Year, Anorak Dave.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: bearcat on January 01, 2010, 11:44:55 AM
I'm not sure which software version ships with new units but are you using ANRB V3.13. This version will then show the Flybe flights etc in the list when the flight number is picked up, but you may have to manually update some of the routes
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: cool_1 on January 01, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
Hi,
thanks for the replies.   

I have Airnav Radarbox 2010 v3.13.

I seem to only have a small handful of Flybe flights showing in the Log file (much less then I would expect) , but the lack of ADS-B being transmitted by Flybe explains that one....I just hope it becomes a mandatory requirement.  The main benefit of ADS-B as I understand it, is to reduce the load on ATC, so it must benefit the ATC, and the airlines for workload, safety, and efficiency.
Who cares about the installation cost  :-)

Im currently taking a look at planeplotter which allows Multilateration of aircraft without ADS-B with enough users:   http://www.coaa.co.uk/planeplotter.htm
Im not sure if that will help or not with Flybe.

I also use the website http://www.radarvirtuel.com alongside Radarbox.
I do however find it surprising that the weblink more often has more route info (ie destination airport etc) against some of the flights, than Radarbox.
Is there a reason for this also ?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Allocator on January 01, 2010, 03:03:47 PM
There is a chance that you might be seeing more Flybe aircraft in the MyFlights list than you think.  If there is no valid Flight ID, then you won't be getting an airline logo.  How about using the Fleet Watch option with wildcards to capture the Flybe fleet?

http://www.airframes.org/fleet/bee

This should do the trick entered in the Fleet Watch Setup list.

G-BRUY
G-ECO*
G-EMB*
G-ERJ*
G-FBE*
G-JEC*
G-JED*
G-KKEV

Check MyLog too using these wildcards one at a time, and see what you have in there.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Yellowshrek on January 01, 2010, 04:26:10 PM
 Cool_1, as a user in the Mid Devon area and an employee of the said company I know that neither the Q400s or Emb.195s are ADS-B equipped. I believe this is a type option and in fact you will not see any Ejets or DHC fleet with ADS-B. In fact the new BA Cityflyer Embs do not have ADS-B fitted. So this means you will not get them on the map either when they deliver through Exeter. (Air Southwest DHC-8s being the same).

 As a regional MRO movements through the Flybe Maintenance Organisation will probably not be identified on the map also as I cannot name many Regional fleets that i.d. (I have noticed the occasional Cityline CRJ on the map with a circled cross only on MyFlights)

 I will ask around and find out if there is any plans to add ADS-B to the fleet or whether there is any indication whether it would become mandatory in the future.
 
So movements identified on the map through Exeter will consist of the based Flying Colours A320, and the occasional charter flight.
 
Bad news but I hope this helps.
 
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on January 01, 2010, 05:00:26 PM
I believe this is a type option and in fact you will not see any Ejets or DHC fleet with ADS-B.

Yes, I can't recall ever having seen any Embraers with ADS-B, although it is in fact fitted to a handful of Dash 8s in Germany and elsewhere.

Quote
I will ask around and find out if there is any plans to add ADS-B to the fleet or whether there is any indication whether it would become mandatory in the future.

AFAIK there are still no plans to make ADS-B mandatory in Europe other than in a few specific areas such as the North Sea helicopter corridors.

HTH
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Yellowshrek on January 03, 2010, 03:36:04 PM
 Cool_1 Just watched A9C-AWL Bae RJ land at Exeter and this is the first time I have seen something land there so thank you. However reminded me I have to go back to work tomorrow after the Xmas break (see thread above), so no thanks for that!!
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: cool_1 on January 26, 2010, 09:54:11 PM
Hi budding RadarBox users !

I thought I would update you with progress since my first 'noobie' post, where I couldnt see any Flybe aircraft around Exeter Airport (EGTE) and around the Devon countryside.

Well I took the plunge, and paid the registration fee for Planeplotter, and now successfully using the Multilateration (MLAT) facility on a daily basis.
I have to say the fun and extra reward you get for the small investment of a few hours reading and tweaking of Planeplotter, are fantastic !!!

Here is what I did  (to assist any other Multilateration newcomers) :-)

1) Download and installed planeplotter (only 5.65 MB !) :   http://www.coaa.co.uk/planeplotter.htm
(I believe you need the full registered version to use the network traffic, but like most of you, I dont mind paying a few more quid to support real innovation, and make the most from my Radarbox.)

2) Request a free 21-day Multilateration trial here:  http://www.coaa.co.uk/mlat_request.php  - just go for it...youve got nothing to lose.

3) As soon as you receive your confirmation email, it walks you through the installation and setup.
Took me about 2-3 hours to get MLAT working including a few settings changed, and a one line addition to my router.  You literally just open up a port to allow data flow.  I was impressed with the nice clear instructions on the email to do this.
You will also need to make sure your PC date/time is accurate, and that your Longitude/ Latitude are in correctly.
(heres a little tip. I used Multimap, to get the accurate position of my receiver box.  Put in your postcode...and the secret is to scroll down, and you will get your Lat / Long in the correct format)

4) Now goto your Radarbox interface, and select one of your local flights. Look up the flight no. you want to see on your Planeplotter (Aircraft list) view. On the line with the flight no. hold 'left shift' and click your mouse on the flight number. Wait 60 seconds and the magic really happens.   Watch those tracking curves get a fix on your flight, and then you can watch it move in real time !  It really is a Eureka moment !
My first MLAT flight was tracking a Flybe  flight, all the way from Exeter (EGTE) to Edinburgh (EGPH)- Fantastic.

After a bit of practise you will soon start tracking loads of non-ADS-B flights, and it really will add an extra dimension to your Radarbox.
Note: you will need a few other users to be tracking the same aircraft for MLAT to work, so dont be put off if it doesnt work straight away. (the best ones to MLAT will show up in orange or green on the Planeplotter listing, to help you).

So basically if I can do it...anyone can.

I would like to thank everyone who replied to my post, and for all the local knowledge on Flybe etc, and in particular Lee (from Plane Finder),who was incredibly helpful with tips on Planeplotter, and even helped me get all my aircraft displayed on my iphone with Plane Finder (A great application for anyone with a Radarbox and an iphone) !  He also gave me some links for some fantastic PP Map overlays.

Hope this helps anyone else who may be interested in map following extra aircraft around Exeter Airport , and many other South-West (non ADS-B) flights, including military flights.

The more Radarbox users who give MLAT a go...the better Radarbox will become...
All the best, and happy Radarbox spotting...

Jon
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: LiveATC on January 29, 2010, 03:46:26 AM
cool_1  , What options need to make  in PP?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: cool_1 on January 29, 2010, 01:41:16 PM
Hi,

here is the paragraph in the Planeplotter MLAT trial email.(which you will receive).

QUOTE "
In PlanePlotter, select Options..I/O settings and make sure that in the Input section, you have checked 'UDP/IP data from net'.Start PlanePlotter processing and wait for your chart to be populated. Select View..Aircraft.Choose an aircraft without a position. You will most likely succeed if the aircraft details are in green or orange and if the aircraft is not too low.Hold down the Control button and left click on the chosen aircraft.
After a few seconds you will see an information box appear telling you how many seconds to wait and how much data has been sent to you.At the end of a minute you will see a summary of the results of processing the data.If you receive enough information for a fix, the view will change to the chart or outline centred on the derived position.There should be a diamond-shaped symbol at the position of the chosen aircraft. If the symbol does not show, check your 'Omit after' time in Options..Chart..Options; it may have timed out before it appears.If there is insufficient information for a fix but a position curve has been obtain, again the view will change to the chart or outline with the curve showing.If there was insufficient information for either, try another aircraft.

"  End of QUOTE.

I have attached a few snapshots of my own Airnav Radarbox options on Planeplotter.

Hope this helps...

regards,
Jon

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Horsham Spotter on January 29, 2010, 01:53:41 PM
Hello all.
Is it possible to see non ADSB aircraft once you have set up and paid for PP on the RB display.
Steve
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: cool_1 on January 29, 2010, 02:04:30 PM
Hi Steve,

yes...snapshots of an MLAT example below.   (on Radarbox, not even the flight ID showed up on this example).  Only the Mode S info needed from Radarbox. 

My box location is in orange with a cross in the south. Planeplotter did the rest !
You get a fix within 60 seconds, and then it plots with a moving map in real time :-)

Many superb background charts are available for free too.

regards,
Jon.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Horsham Spotter on January 29, 2010, 02:18:51 PM
Hi John
Thank you for the reply.
Looks great but can you view the information whilst viewing the Radar Box.
Asking because I'm tempted in purchasing PP.
Steve.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 29, 2010, 02:41:18 PM
It seems there is a great debate going on regarding the future of PP: it is maintained by an individual and not a company and although these applications have their advantages (usually being cheaper) there is no guarantee they will continue to be supported and could simply disappear from one the to the other. That appears to be what is happening now.

At least with AirNav you have the guarantee of continuous development and a growing network. Innovation and work will not stop at AirNav Systems.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 29, 2010, 02:44:08 PM
Adding to the previous post and copied from another message board it is easy to understand how non-professionally maintained addons can be unreliable:

"Bev has posted this on the PP Yahoo Group:
Hi,

Sorry that the sharing system was off for so long. I am currently in a time
zone 10:30 hours ahead of UTC and also, just the last two days, on an offshore
island with no Internet connection (except by driving to a distant hilltop).

Normally, recovery does not require any intervention from me. There is a
watchdog that detects a hiccup in the server and restarts it automatically. On
this occasion, the server was running normally (as you would have found if you
checked the homepage) but the database sub-service had failed so all share
attempts (and registration transactions) provoked an error message. Of course,
that is invisible when it happens in response to a sharing attempt. This
phenomenon has never happened before so it is unrelated to other recent
problems.

In just over a week, I will be back in UTC time zone so if such a thing happens
after that, it will be dealt with more promptly.

Sorry for the inconvenience but remember what it says in the EULA.

Regards
Bev
COAA"

Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: bratters on January 29, 2010, 03:34:50 PM
It seems there is a great debate going on regarding the future of PP: it is maintained by an individual and not a company and although these applications have their advantages (usually being cheaper) there is no guarantee they will continue to be supported and could simply disappear from one the to the other. That appears to be what is happening now.

At least with AirNav you have the guarantee of continuous development and a growing network. Innovation and work will stop at AirNav Systems.

You're right in what you say Airnav however PP seems to be currently the only system to offer a solution to plotting the non ADS-B flights.

Now if you're hinting at something in the pipeline..........
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 29, 2010, 04:12:41 PM
You get a fix within 60 seconds, and then it plots with a moving map in real time

Almost.  My understanding is that you get an MLAT fix every 120 seconds, although the first two fixes occur every 60 seconds.  In between the 120 seconds, Planeplotter attempts to "guess" the position of the aircraft based on current speed and course (if you have Prediction turned on).

Any PP experts correct me if I'm wrong.  And, or course, PP multilateration is only of any use if you have 3-4 Ground Stations near you.  So check the map - Ground Stations are cyan - http://www.coaa.co.uk/pp-user-charts.htm  .  And if the PP server is working ;)
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: raflec on January 29, 2010, 05:00:44 PM
I am totally new to this, but I have subscribed to the 21 day Trial. From the map it looks like MLAT will possibly work, I live in East Yorkshire.
Is their anyway I can check what aircraft I can see with MLAT, without buying first.
Also how much is the subscription to MLAT after the trial.
I ask, because MLAT would be the only reason for buying. I do not think the software is half as good as radarbox.
Thanks
Graham
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Fenris on January 29, 2010, 05:09:23 PM
It's a little difficult to expect perfection when a given problem has never occurred before like the most recent one, I imagine it will be looked at fairly carefully when Bev is back in Europe.

The two recent outages are the only cases of server problems I know of with PP, and longer term users say much the same.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: cool_1 on January 29, 2010, 06:16:51 PM
A possible hint at something new (with MLAT) in the pipeline from Airnav there ???  ;-)   

Steve ,
Personally I always run both Airnav Radar AND Planeplotter at the same time.
Just make sure you click on the green 'start processing' button, when you open Planeplotter.
 Then you can just switch between windows for different maps and charts.  You could also easily run in dual monitor setup.  Its like having your cake...and the cream...and eating it !   :-)

Graham,
I am still using the free trial at the moment so not 100% sure of the cost. I believe its a one of charge of 12 Euros....
Take a look on the PP website,  it says if you are a licence holder (which means, if youve paid the small one off fee for PP), and you are then happy to continue after the MLAT trial then you may choose to pay a small fee of Euro 12.00. 
So its a no brainer...
To me its not a choice of one over the other, as Planeplotter compliments Radarbox and works alongside it ! 
As to what aircraft can you see before you buy it...well thats what the free trial will hopefully tell you.  I get all sorts from light aircraft, to regional airlines (such as Flybe), many commercial jets which just aren't fitted with ADS-B  (eg Embraer ) to military aircraft.

Incidently the latest version is 5.4.6.2 ,and right now I can see that there are currently over 350 users switched on, using MLAT :

http://coaa.co.uk/ppuserversions.php

Ive not personally noticed any problems with server.

I look forward to future Airnav products, and I will be the first to buy them...however this is the only working MLAT solution I currently know.  Over half my local flights in the South West, are non-ADS-B. 


Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 29, 2010, 06:29:48 PM
Who knows what we are reserving for MLAT. :-)
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 29, 2010, 06:37:56 PM
I believe its a one of charge of 12 Euros....

12euro + 20% VAT = 14.40 per year for multilateration.

To me its not a choice of one over the other, as Planeplotter compliments Radarbox and works alongside it

Agreed.  Although until multilateration came along, I found I wasn't bothering to use Planeplotter, even though I'd paid for it.  And remember, all the network and multilateration features of Planeplotter are only experimental.  Read the COAA disclaimer which they're quick to quote to you if you moan about the server being down again - "The Internet sharing and multilateration features are to be regarded as experimental and may be withdrawn at any time."

If Airnav can develop a better multilateration solution, then I don't think I'd bother with Planeplotter.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: cool_1 on January 29, 2010, 07:40:09 PM
thanks for clarifying the subscription. Seems fantastic value for money.

Here is a Flybe flight I was tracking just a short while ago on the PP Map, Flight BEE805 from Exeter to Edinburgh , Dash 8, reg G-JECP (pic attached).

Without Planeplotter, and MLAT, it would have just been a beep, a line of text...and nothing showing on the map.   

Well. Time to relax with a beer !  Have a good weekend all !

regards,
Jon
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 29, 2010, 08:11:45 PM
What is the accuracy of MLAT (NM) and how often is it updated?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: jannuh on January 29, 2010, 08:21:53 PM
It seems there is a great debate going on regarding the future of PP: it is maintained by an individual and not a company and although these applications have their advantages (usually being cheaper) there is no guarantee they will continue to be supported and could simply disappear from one the to the other. That appears to be what is happening now.

At least with AirNav you have the guarantee of continuous development and a growing network. Innovation and work will stop at AirNav Systems.

Ahum AirNav, ahum, need I say more?

I would shame myself as writing stuff as a company this way!!
Need I say more?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: jannuh on January 29, 2010, 08:23:10 PM
What is the accuracy of MLAT (NM) and how often is it updated?

You write this:
At least with AirNav you have the guarantee of continuous development and a growing network. Innovation and work will stop at AirNav Systems.

and asking the above question in public?

ahum, need I say more?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Support on January 29, 2010, 08:38:59 PM
jannuh,

Not really, we constanly get asked questions from some users saying why can't you reduce the cost of the network like.., why can't you implement this etc..

If a addon is being dicussed in this way on our forum we are have the right to state the facts to customers.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 29, 2010, 09:04:35 PM
What is the accuracy of MLAT (NM) and how often is it updated?

I'm no expert, but my experience is that MLAT in Planeplotter can range from pretty accurate (within 10 miles), to very innaccurate.  In fact, my first MLAT'd aircraft jumped from the west to the east coast of Scotland between successive positions.  As the PP MLAT help states "It is the responsibility of the user to assess the curves on the chart to determine whether or not to be confident of the least-squares fix that PlanePlotter derives for the wanted aircraft."

And, my understand is that the MLAT'd position is calculated every 2 minutes, based on data gathered over the previous minute.

It's still a useful facility to get a rough idea of the position of an aircraft.  Two examples, although these do illustrate some of the positional inaccuracies that you get with MLAT:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2709/4296759987_6d98053656_t.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarbat/4296759987/sizes/o/)   (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4035/4288456764_a3035fc0c7_t.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarbat/4288456764/sizes/o/)

EDIT: There's an excellent description in the PP help file about MLAT.  The section on "Position Errors" stretches to five paragraphs, and hopefully sets a realistic level of expectation that you can expect from multilateration.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: bratters on January 29, 2010, 09:22:06 PM
Tarbat, would it be true to say that the more contributors, the more accurate and more regular the plotting would be?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 29, 2010, 09:30:34 PM
Tarbat, would it be true to say that the more contributors, the more accurate and more regular the plotting would be?

I'm no expert, but I would guess that the more Ground Stations there are, the more accurate the position.  To get ANY chance at a position, you need at least 3 Ground Stations that can all see the same non-ADS/B aircraft, as well as all see one other ADS/B aircraft, at the same time.  This requirement means that approx. 95% of my attempts at getting an MLAT fix fail :(

I would also guess there is a limit to how accurate the position can be calculated, based on the accuracy of the timing from an SBS-1, accuracy of the Ground Station map coordinates, accuracy of PC clocks, etc.

AFAIK, the update rate of one calculation every 2 minutes is fixed regardless of the number of Ground Stations.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: raflec on January 29, 2010, 11:39:48 PM
"As to what aircraft can you see before you buy it...well thats what the free trial will hopefully tell you.  I get all sorts from light aircraft, to regional airlines (such as Flybe), many commercial jets which just aren't fitted with ADS-B  (eg Embraer ) to military aircraft."

Hi Jon, But with the free trial you cannot subscribe to MLAT, because it asks you for your email and product code. i.e you have to first purchase PP for £25 Unless I am doing something wrong.
Graham








[/quote]
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on January 30, 2010, 08:00:11 AM
"As to what aircraft can you see before you buy it...well thats what the free trial will hopefully tell you.  I get all sorts from light aircraft, to regional airlines (such as Flybe), many commercial jets which just aren't fitted with ADS-B  (eg Embraer ) to military aircraft."

Hi Jon, But with the free trial you cannot subscribe to MLAT, because it asks you for your email and product code. i.e you have to first purchase PP for £25 Unless I am doing something wrong.

Even the time-limited trial version of PP will enable you to see:

1.  what non-ADS-B aircraft are available on the network

2.  which other sharer(s) are picking up the same aircraft

3.  where said sharers are located in relation to you

4.  which of these sharers, if any, are MLat ground stations

Combined, that information should be sufficient for you to make an informed decision about whether MLat via PP would be viable in your neck of the woods.

There is even a free add-on utility called MyCircles which will do most of the above automatically, and should work with PP in evaluation mode, although obviously full MLat is much more accurate.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 30, 2010, 11:39:34 AM
"I'm no expert, but my experience is that MLAT in Planeplotter can range from pretty accurate (within 10 miles), to very innaccurate."

Despite 95% of the forum members being enthusiasts RadarBox is being used by many professional clients who can't afford to access data that "sometimes" can be unreliable and other times be correct. This explains why we haven't included MLAT on RadarBox now. Anyway RadarBox is well known for having everything inside its software: no need for external addons at all (the application is still 100% compatible with port 30003 output).

So it is obvious that MLAT will be included in the application too. Taking in account we have most of the time 5x to 10x more network users than PP it is easy to understand that the result of this implementation will be more accurate with our software.

Stby on this one. As usual we will always innovate so having a RadarBox receiver guarantees that you are "in good hands".
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on January 30, 2010, 01:39:03 PM
Despite 95% of the forum members being enthusiasts RadarBox is being used by many professional clients who can't afford to access data that "sometimes" can be unreliable and other times be correct. This explains why we haven't included MLAT on RadarBox now. Anyway RadarBox is well known for having everything inside its software: no need for external addons at all (the application is still 100% compatible with port 30003 output).

So it is obvious that MLAT will be included in the application too. Taking in account we have most of the time 5x to 10x more network users than PP it is easy to understand that the result of this implementation will be more accurate with our software.

Good luck.

If you succeed in implementing a plug-and-play, out-of-the-box MLat solution for RadarBox users, then congratulations will be in order.

However I fear that, just as with RadarBox V3 and RB 3D, this will turn out to be yet another distraction from the more fundamental issue of fixing the database, which doesn't seem to have progressed at all.

Most users, not least your professional ones, will be pretty unimpressed when RadarBox MLats an aircraft and then displays details and photos for an entirely different airframe ...
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 30, 2010, 05:37:22 PM
DaveReid: sincerely we are totally tired of reading your weekly complaints of database problems and we do believe that all forum readers should know what is behind this.

You have a company that wants to provide database information to AirNav Systems and you want to profit from this. We have more than one time informed you by email that we were not interested in such services and that if in the future we changed our position, we would contact you directly.

So there is no point in continuously playing the "database has problems" game with the objective of AirNav Systems paying you a fee to access the services you provide. As a company we are simply not interested in your paid solutions.

Hope this clarifies the information.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: ACW367 on January 30, 2010, 06:43:20 PM
Radarbox

Whilst a professional solution may not be within what you require at this time.  All we are asking as users is that the Navdata DB is brought up to date a little when 3D is released. I for one count the lack of an update as my biggest disappointment when 3.13 was released.  I do not consider that I require a rolls-royce standard, just a spring clean around the edges.

This could be looked at by a developer in spare time whilst waiting for programmes to run.  Or it could be done by a student/son of employee for a couple of weeks as a vacation job.

Even if the only work undertaken is to change non-ICAO codes that are currently throughout the released Navdata to the correct ICAO codes (we have posted the anomolies here enough times).

I have also used online production lists to review older fleets in the DB like B72* B732, DC9*, LJ23, C500 etc. For each type I have been able to delete around half the records as aircraft which are broken-up, PWFU or changed registration.  For example I have also removed the couple of hundred United Boeing 737s which have all been retired.

Additionally your server must contain 2-3000 codes of aircraft delivered over the last couple of years which do not appear on the Navdata DB3 which was released to us with version 3.13 and which we then had to reach back into your server to populate again.

All we are asking is that the NavData DB3 that is released with 3D is tidied up a little.  Put back in alphabetical order with correct ICAO codes. With some older aircraft that are long gone to thier maker manually stripped out, and some of the newly delivered airliners of major carriers added.  The airline list in the DB can also be compared to online versions of ICAO8585 to ensure defunct airlines are removed and correct IATA codes applied.  

There are enough online resources out there, surely someone in your company in thier spare moments or a vacation worker employed for a week or so could do at this little or no overall cost.  It would make a major difference to something that we your customers consider to be one the finer details of your great product.

Regards ACW
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 30, 2010, 07:00:05 PM
ACW: thanks for your long post.

There are two situations here:
1- A problem with a very limited number of aircraft that might not be correctly updated on our database. As stated by our support many times this has been noted and is on our to-do list. This is what really matters here and it's still on the to-do list.

2- A user that constantly focuses on the same problem with hidden objectives. That situation is totally clarified now.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: ACW367 on January 30, 2010, 09:25:27 PM
Thank you for noting my points Airnav.  I would point out that in my limited editing of old aircraft and larger fleets like 727's and DC9s that have been shed by airlines. I came up with around 8000 aircraft that have been PWFU/Scrapped etc. That is slightly more than a very few aircraft, it is around 10% of your DB.  
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Fenris on January 31, 2010, 01:42:37 AM
Airnav

Please can you add the ability to see what is missing in the database when the populate facility in MyLog is used?

I currently have 637 aircraft showing as requiring something to be updated but despite there being lots of server photo requests the number does not change on the next attempt, in fact it just gets bigger and bigger, it was well below 400 a couple of months ago.

I don't know how to improve this situation because I can't tell what is missing, a list of what the program considers in need of updating would be really useful.

Cheers!
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: jannuh on January 31, 2010, 08:39:20 AM
DaveReid: sincerely we are totally tired //   // you directly.

So there is no point in continuously playing the "database has problems" game with the objective of AirNav Systems paying you a fee to access the services you provide. As a company we are simply not interested in your paid solutions.

Hope this clarifies the information.

Haha, a very good one, AN is just  interested to get something for free (for instance our data) and sell it then for a "reasonable" price....

Yes AN users this is the joke of the day, a new gadget at AN forum!


Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: ACW367 on January 31, 2010, 09:29:43 AM
Airnav

Please can you add the ability to see what is missing in the database when the populate facility in MyLog is used?

I currently have 637 aircraft showing as requiring something to be updated but despite there being lots of server photo requests the number does not change on the next attempt, in fact it just gets bigger and bigger, it was well below 400 a couple of months ago.

I don't know how to improve this situation because I can't tell what is missing, a list of what the program considers in need of updating would be really useful.

Cheers!


Fenris
What the computer feels needs updating is any blank field.  Therefore if you list by all time and click on each column header, it will place those with blank values at the top.   These are the ones you now need to manually updatein your database explorer.

Since following users requests, Airnav stopped the server downloading the '...' in the type field and the 'untitled' in the airline field.  These are now populated by blanks, no matter how many times you reach back to the server.

Users requested this to ensure more accurate owner information could be manually input by them.  Airnav implemented as per the user requests.  

The onus is now on you to manually update the AT and AC fields in your database explorer, to then get that manual information drawn into your MyLog.  I get around 1200 aircraft a day logged and that gives me around 20 manual database amendments per day to keep every field updated in mylog. My box has been on 1hour toady and I already have two new blanks.  Both are Bizjets where the airliners.net picture information of 'untitled' has been removed by the Airnav server and replaced with a blank, as was vocally requested by forum users.  I am now going to online registers to find th correct owner information to place in the AC field of database explorer.

Regards
ACW
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on January 31, 2010, 10:13:46 AM
AN is just interested to get something for free (for instance our data) and sell it then for a "reasonable" price....

Come on, don't be so hard on AirNav. 

If you're able to sell information back to the users who provided it, at a profit, and without having to accept any responsibility for its accuracy, then it's no surprise that you don't place any value on a professional solution.

Personally, I'm past caring who AirNav use to fix the problem, I just wish they would fix it.  Speaking for a moment purely as a user, I'm fed up with my RadarBox telling me that I'm picking up aircraft that I know to be in a museum, or written off, or long since re-registered.

It's not rocket science, after all, and there are any number of vendors out there who specialise in collating the kind of information that RadarBox customers ought to be able to take for granted.

In fact I'd be equally delighted if AirNav went to, say, ICAO and asked to license their International Register of Civil Aircraft (IRCA) for use within the RadarBox database.  Then at least we would get the ICAO type designators correct, which would be a good start.

How's that for a constructive, unbiased suggestion ?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: anorak on January 31, 2010, 10:27:58 AM
Hi Everybody, a personnal plea. Could we keep the forum good natured and good humured, I could watch Eastenders for the depression bit.
Have a nice day,  Anorak Dave.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Fenris on January 31, 2010, 10:50:12 AM

What the computer feels needs updating is any blank field.  Therefore if you list by all time and click on each column header, it will place those with blank values at the top.   These are the ones you now need to manually updatein your database explorer.


OK, but would it be unreasonable to ask that the incomplete list be extracted and presented with the ability to move to the database entry in question for ease of use?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on January 31, 2010, 11:46:14 AM
I'm new to the forum...not an RB users , but an SBS1 owner ....however  I help Bev at COAA maintain the Mlat network and just thought I should clear up a few myths about what Mlat is all about.

Multilateration is totally dependant on a contained , secure network within planeplotter itself.

Its not just a matter of letting raw data flow ...and thats it !

Every ground station must be precisely located and validated on an individual basis.
Could Airnav do that ?
Do they have the resources to moniotor it 18 hours a day and carry out continual
network tests ?
And at what cost to the user ?

Planeplotter is not to be seen as a competitor....its an add on to both SBS1 and RB.

Sadly only SBS1 users can , at present , act as ground stations for PP Mlat...but , RB users can still have Mlat facilities , provided they pay the one off licence fee and an annual fee of just 12 Euros plus tax.

What I think Andre' should be concentrating on is making RB useable within the PP Mlat network.
Look upon PP Mlat as an asset rather han a threat.

If RB users could deliver raw data in the correct format , then they too could become PP MLat Ground Stations and Master users for free [ no annual 12 euro fee ]
Their own data would then be included in Mlat fixes providing increased accuracy and coverage.

An uncontrolled Mlat network would be worse than not having one at all....so the answer is  , make Radar Boxes  deliver the correct raw data and let RB users embrace the existing PP Mlat network.

Its all about harmony....

Finally the rather pointed comment about PP being unreliable following a couple of recent outages is just laughable.
PP has been running for years whithout any long term problems[ by long term I mean the occassional server outage of a few minutes]
Recent events were totally outside Bevs control , just like any other network situation
I'm sure the RB network has been down from time to time ;)






Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 31, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
Every ground station must be precisely located and validated on an individual basis.

Couldn't a GPS receiver add-on help solve that problem?  At the moment we still get the odd MLAT Ground Station in PP in the wrong location.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on January 31, 2010, 11:52:27 AM
Of course it could  Chris ....so , who is going to ensure that each RB ground station within the RB Mlat network is using a GPS receiver plugged into their PC to ensure their location is correct.
Who then is going to remove rogue stations from the network..switch off dubious suppliers of raw data and pin down the source of spurious info ?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 31, 2010, 11:56:00 AM
Of course it could  Chris ....so , who is going to ensure that each RB ground station within the RB Mlat network is using a GPS receiver plugged into their PC to ensure their location is correct.

I didn't mean plugged into their PC.  Airnav could be developing a GPS addon for the Radarbox, for all you know.  It's all guess-work, with little point in speculating.

And PP MLAT isn't always as great as is sometimes suggested.  For me at least, around 90% of MLATs that I attempt in PP fail, despite having 3 Ground Stations around me.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on January 31, 2010, 12:01:05 PM

And PP MLAT isn't always as great as is sometimes suggested.  For me at least, around 90% of MLATs that I attempt in PP fail, despite having 3 Ground Stations around me.

But you know why that is.....simply because you are geographically out on a limb , PLUS , you are not supplying your own SBS1 raw data

Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on January 31, 2010, 12:02:36 PM
" I didn't mean plugged into their PC.  Airnav could be developing a GPS addon for the Radarbox, for all you know.  It's all guess-work, with little point in speculating "

Good idea.....at what cost to users ?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 31, 2010, 12:07:18 PM
But you know why that is.....simply because you are geographically out on a limb , PLUS , you are not supplying your own SBS1 raw data

Geographically out on a limb?  I was told that with 3 Ground Stations I would be able to use MLAT.  As it is, I've managed to successfully MLAT less than 5 local aircraft since I paid for MLAT.

MLAT works for the select few in areas with a high number of SBS-1 enthusiasts (London, Manchester, etc.).  For the rest of Radarbox users around the world, PP MLAT is useless in my opinion.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 31, 2010, 12:08:07 PM
DaveReid:
"Personally, I'm past caring who AirNav use to fix the problem, I just wish they would fix it. How's that for a constructive, unbiased suggestion ?"

This is false Dave taking in account the emails and PMs we have changed regarding this. We don't like hidden agendas.

Anyway let's focus on what really matters:
1- MLAT: exactly what we've told before. As withe other features on our software/hardware expect something much better than what PP offers.

2- Databases: what is the most used/common third-party aircraft registration information currently available (for spotters, etc)?

Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 31, 2010, 12:12:08 PM
2- Databases: what is the most used/common third-party aircraft registration information currently available (for spotters, etc)?

In the UK - Gatwick Aviation Society, which Airnav already get data from.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on January 31, 2010, 12:16:22 PM
But you know why that is.....simply because you are geographically out on a limb , PLUS , you are not supplying your own SBS1 raw data

Geographically out on a limb?  I was told that with 3 Ground Stations I would be able to use MLAT.  As it is, I've managed to successfully MLAT less than 5 local aircraft since I paid for MLAT.

MLAT works for the select few in areas with a high number of SBS-1 enthusiasts (London, Manchester, etc.).  For the rest of Radarbox users around the world, PP MLAT is useless in my opinion.

Well I suppose that if living in England means we are the select few , then fair enough ...all 50 million of us  :O)

Chris , the user map is available for all to see....and you can see that if you supplied your own raw data , then things would be much different.

Meanwhile for the "select few" ie the rest of the poplulation , Mlat is a huge success. if it wasn't , Air nav wouldnt be worrying about it , just to satisfy 5% of its users would it ?

Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on January 31, 2010, 12:35:59 PM
MLAT works for the select few in areas with a high number of SBS-1 enthusiasts (London, Manchester, etc.).  For the rest of Radarbox users around the world, PP MLAT is useless in my opinion.

Well I suppose that if living in England means we are the select few , then fair enough ...all 50 million of us

Are you now suggesting the PP MLAT network covers the whole of England?  For all 50 million people?  Down to 3,000 feet or better as you've claimed previously?  I just feel that the capabilities of PP MLAT are over sold by some people.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Allocator on January 31, 2010, 01:09:49 PM

Meanwhile for the "select few" ie the rest of the poplulation , Mlat is a huge success. if it wasn't , Air nav wouldnt be worrying about it , just to satisfy 5% of its users would it ?


What makes you think that AirNav are 'worrying' about MLAT?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on January 31, 2010, 01:20:01 PM

Meanwhile for the "select few" ie the rest of the poplulation , Mlat is a huge success. if it wasn't , Air nav wouldnt be worrying about it , just to satisfy 5% of its users would it ?


What makes you think that AirNav are 'worrying' about MLAT?


Why else would they have bothered to become embroiled in this thread other than to try and  pursuade RB users that  they recognise the competition.

As I said earlier , PP is not a threat .
Planeplotter is now a recognised add on resource for the SBS1 and there is no reason why it cant be the same for RB.

Personally I think its a real shame that RB users cant become PP Mlat Ground Stations  , but at least they can still use PP Mlat as master Users and get the benefit that way.

There have been a number of RB users who have taken advantage of PPMlat and then realised its even better to become a ground station too...and have gone out and bought an SBS1  in addition to , or in place of their RB.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: klm on January 31, 2010, 01:23:37 PM

If RB users could deliver raw data in the correct format , then they too could become PP MLat Ground Stations and Master users for free [ no annual 12 euro fee ]
Their own data would then be included in Mlat fixes providing increased accuracy and coverage.

Think this is not going to happen, as far as i can tell airnav don't want to see a big piece of there income (sub for network)get lost.
Don't understand why there is so much quarrel between the 2  user groups (RB + SBS).
i alway tought that forums are intentional to help eachother, but i only see struggle and allegations.
For people like me who are not so technical and only join boards like these to learn more about the products and what we can expect from it, we got completely lost
in this war.
if i read on other forums how bad the RB is, i wonder why they all so eager to get the network option for free.
(must be something they missing  with the other software).

If there is a topic started with a simple question it allways ended up with the same old story and always started by the same people
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 31, 2010, 01:24:59 PM
Again, for those forum members that don't understand what's going on behind the scenes here:

1- MLAT is a way of tracking aircraft which don't send their position using ADS-B (typically mode-s only aircraft);

2- PP (Planeplotter) is an addon software that receives data from the 30003 port of both RadarBox and SBS (our competitors product);

3- Our competitor is well known for being extremely weak in terms of software development. They ship their units with a  software called Basestation which didn't have a major upgrade for the last 4 years. It doesn't have internet data sharing, doesn't show photos of received aircraft, doesn't have alerts, mylog, worldwide map coverage just to name a few features. To be direct it looks like a Spectrum 48K application.

More details at:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=606.0

4- Facing this they now totally rely on external addon applications developed by enthusiasts which don't guarantee a continuous development and support for their products (they appear and can suddenly disappear - just read the beginning of this thread with PP author mentioning problems in maintaining its servers). One of this applications is called PP. The only thing that PP does that RadarBox doesn't is, MLAT.

5- So our competitor (and their followers strategy) is to focus on MLAT, day after day, week after week to argue "We have MLAT and they don't". But,  MLAT is already on our to-do list, so this keeps them nervous.

It is easy to understand this taking in account conversations from other internet forums, some of them that were created by our competitors behind the scenes, managed by their top posters and support people but that still guarantee to be independent (where 90% of their posts are direct or indirect attacks on Airnav Systems - who knows why...).

Anyway let's move forward: we are not here for this kind of discussions, we are here to work and innovate like we've been doing for the last 2 years - and that's what will be doing with MLAT and other features - that will make our customers even more happy and stay with us.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: viking9 on January 31, 2010, 01:35:09 PM
So... where were all the Fybe aircraft?

Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on January 31, 2010, 01:37:37 PM


Anyway let's move forward: we are not here for this kind of discussions, we are here to work and innovate like we've been doing for the last 2 years - and that's what will be doing with MLAT and other features - that will make our customers even more happy and stay with us.


Excellent....well I for one look forward to an imminent relase of RB Mlat and can't wait to see how it works....

Congratulations to all concerned at Air Nav for responding so quickly to the market and introducing their own Multilateration Network.

BTW ...... when does it start ?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: klm on January 31, 2010, 01:45:09 PM
@airnav

If this was a reaction on my topic, let me first say i know what mlat is and also know what PP is.
What i try to say is there are people on these forums who are not realy intrested in this all but just simple users who not care abbout the technical aspect.
what must these folks think if every topic ended with the same squabble.
if you read the so called "nutral" forums all the topics about the RB ending with the same conclusion and always by the same persons.
its a shame that people run forums this way

BTW see endig above post exactly what i mean
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Allocator on January 31, 2010, 01:47:01 PM
Give it a rest satcom.  I think that we can all read between the lines are see where you are coming from :-(
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: bratters on January 31, 2010, 01:48:02 PM

MLAT is already on our to-do list.

we are here to work and innovate like we've been doing for the last 2 years - and that's what will be doing with MLAT and other features - that will make our customers even more happy and stay with us.

I think - I hope - I speak for the majority of RB owners whan I say I am NOT interested in the politics and the infighting between this and that product and this and that company.

I'm very content with my RB and if, as the above quote indicates, it's going to be made even better (and won't cost me too much in the process!) then I for one can't wait for it to happen.

Let's get on with it Airnav - the sooner the better :)
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Frank on January 31, 2010, 01:49:49 PM

If RB users could deliver raw data in the correct format , then they too could become PP MLat Ground Stations and Master users for free [ no annual 12 euro fee ]
Their own data would then be included in Mlat fixes providing increased accuracy and coverage.

Think this is not going to happen, as far as i can tell airnav don't want to see a big piece of there income (sub for network)get lost.
Don't understand why there is so much quarrel between the 2  user groups (RB + SBS).
i alway tought that forums are intentional to help eachother, but i only see struggle and allegations.
For people like me who are not so technical and only join boards like these to learn more about the products and what we can expect from it, we got completely lost
in this war.
if i read on other forums how bad the RB is, i wonder why they all so eager to get the network option for free.
(must be something they missing  with the other software).

If there is a topic started with a simple question it allways ended up with the same old story and always started by the same people

I good not agree more with you; it sometimes ruins my temper and stops me from asking questions in these groups at all. Pity.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 31, 2010, 01:50:50 PM
klm: you are absolutely right. You just have to understand that there are a few forum members that are here with hidden purposes/objectives and our users have to understand what happens. Simple users (99% of the forum members) have nothing to do with these games and we are here for them.

And finally let's focus on the database errors: which solutions are there that our customers would like RadarBox to have an interface to (to get flight data from them directly)? Let us know, we will contact them directly and see what we can do.

Regarding MLAT: one more time expect the technical best solutions from us - we have always release what we promised.

Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 31, 2010, 01:51:49 PM
Adding again, no one has answered the database question yet...
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Allocator on January 31, 2010, 01:57:17 PM
I certainly haven't found any one completely accurate and comprehensive database.  That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but why would one country/operator/organisation what to spend time on this.

The CAA G-INFO database is going to be fairly accurate and I'm sure that the FAA has a similar database, but what about all the other licensing authorities around the world!  It all comes back to the enthusiast databases like GAS and airframes.org and these depend on unpaid contribution.

I'd like to be proved wrong here, but I won't hold my breath!
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on January 31, 2010, 02:21:09 PM
The CAA G-INFO database is going to be fairly accurate and I'm sure that the FAA has a similar database, but what about all the other licensing authorities around the world!

AirNav have already dismissed my suggestion of using the ICAO International Register, which covers official data from most of the world's registration authorities.

Perhaps the proposal coming from you instead is less likely to get the standard shoot-the-messenger response.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 31, 2010, 02:22:38 PM
"AirNav have already dismissed my suggestion of using the ICAO International Register, which covers official data from most of the world's registration authorities."

Please copy-paste our statement where we dismiss it.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Horsham Spotter on January 31, 2010, 02:32:08 PM
I set the quick filter to altitude and set that below 5000ft I can then follow the Flybe aircraft as they arrive and depart by flight number and altitude.
Thats what this thread is about is it not.
Happy RB owner.
Steve.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: ACW367 on January 31, 2010, 02:49:12 PM


2- Databases: what is the most used/common third-party aircraft registration information currently available (for spotters, etc)?



Airnav

Another long one, I am sorry. My beef is more about clearing out the aircraft that are departed and the glaring errors which stick out like a sore thumb to us users that access Database explorer daily.  Sort the DB3 by field AC and you will find aircraft of many defunct airlines like Pan Am, TWA, ATA, Zoom, EOS, Maxjet, Braniff.  

I use http://www.airlinerlist.com/ They have downloadable spreadsheets which are kept very up to date.  It covers commercial and bizjet types aircraft types down to Otter/Cessna 208 size.  

To edit, I filter my database explorer AT field for one old aircraft type, then find the registrations one-by-one in the appropriate airlinerlist spreadsheet to ascertain if it is still current or not. Unfortunately it is a manual process which is why I recommended a vacation job would be the best way to do it.

For example just now I sorted the C500 list.  I started with 212 DB3 entries.  Comparing each one to the production list, I was able to identify and remove 58 airframes that were either scrapped or reregistered (around 1/4). In all it took me around 20 minutes to review all entires for  that type.  

I also found N501GB. It is a current C500 Citation C/N500-0231 registered in 2002.  Your released NavdataDB3 database given to users ascribes it to a Lockheed Tristar of Nordic European Airways deregistered 13 years ago.  It is these obvious items that could be seen and cleared up by one of your developers just by scanning through the list.  It appears to us users that you trusted the computers to populate the NavdataDB3 and have never cast a human eye on it to find even the most glaring errors.

Other examples of what can easily be cut away. Since 2001 the major US carriers have retired 727s (united, american), B742 (northwest), A306 (american), B737s (united), JS31 (every major feeder airline) etc.  Simple sorts by airline name and aircraft type could remove hundreds of these airframes that are still in the DB3. You could use the fleet lists at http://www.ch-aviation.ch/aircraft.php to confirm which full fleets have been put to grass.

I am not suggesting that you need to fully manually review all 82,000, just pass a manual eye over airline names for defunct airlines and the older fleets like 707s, 727s, Tristars, DC9s, 737-200s, sabreliners, jetstars etc.   Through this manual review & deletion process, solely using the delete button on Database explorer, I have got my personal Navdata file under 50,000 entries with less than circa 2 weeks work.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on January 31, 2010, 04:05:38 PM
"AirNav have already dismissed my suggestion of using the ICAO International Register, which covers official data from most of the world's registration authorities."

Please copy-paste our statement where we dismiss it.

OK, if you are considering the ICAO International Register after all then I'm pleased to hear it, and I stand corrected.

Let me know if you would like any introductions.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on January 31, 2010, 04:21:59 PM
Ok so we have a progress. Please confirm you are not, one more time, trying to sell your system to our company.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Fenris on January 31, 2010, 05:30:50 PM
Airnav

I'm assuming that what you have at present is not free of cost to you. The question is, could some of that money be better spent elsewhere to help create a better and more accurate database? Exactly who the money goes to is a secondary consideration isn't it? Value for money is what most people want.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on February 01, 2010, 09:13:30 AM
Regarding MLAT: one more time expect the technical best solutions from us - we have always release what we promised.

It's got to be better than the PP-MLAT solution.  This is all I ever seem to get from that solution:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4321199083_41840fa394_o.jpg)

4 stations receiving raw data from the aircraft, 168 raw data packets received and processed, and still it can't give a fix on the aircraft.  Useless.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: itestoo on February 01, 2010, 09:35:16 AM
So may be MALT Online with more ground stations, and new competitors ?

Regards
Laurent
www.radarvirtuel.com
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: klm on February 01, 2010, 09:54:17 AM
Regarding MLAT: one more time expect the technical best solutions from us - we have always release what we promised.

It's got to be better than the PP-MLAT solution.  This is all I ever seem to get from that solution:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4321199083_41840fa394_o.jpg)

4 stations receiving raw data from the aircraft, 168 raw data packets received and processed, and still it can't give a fix on the aircraft.  Useless.

At this point a must agree with the airnav arguments.
for the best results you simply can not rely on other hobbyists.
today there contribute and tomorrow there gone.
if you wish the best result there must be found a better solution.
as i see it now with the pp-mlat, at this moment its just a cluster of enthusiastic hobbyists who have succeeded to get this to work and they desperate to get more users to provide data for this.
Not saying that pp-mlat wont work at all but not on this manner 
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on February 01, 2010, 10:59:46 AM
as i see it now with the pp-mlat, at this moment its just a cluster of enthusiastic hobbyists who have succeeded to get this to work and they desperate to get more users to provide data for this.
Not saying that pp-mlat wont work at all but not on this manner 

You have just described, not only the PlanePlotter/MLat network, but also the AirNav network and indeed any of the other ADS-B sharing networks that we all have access to.

Are you seriously expecting AirNav to provide you with a network of worldwide, 24/7, professional MLat ground stations ?  If so, common sense will tell you to expect also a few more zeros to be added to the cost of your network subscription to finance that.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on February 01, 2010, 11:12:29 AM
Regarding MLAT: one more time expect the technical best solutions from us - we have always release what we promised.

It's got to be better than the PP-MLAT solution.  This is all I ever seem to get from that solution:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4321199083_41840fa394_o.jpg)

4 stations receiving raw data from the aircraft, 168 raw data packets received and processed, and still it can't give a fix on the aircraft.  Useless.

Location Location Location

Not a lot more to say really.....oh and if you were supplying raw data yourself you would get a better hyper curve result

50 miles south and you would get much better results...so why not go mobile and test it :)

Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on February 01, 2010, 11:21:35 AM
4 stations receiving raw data from the aircraft, 168 raw data packets received and processed, and still it can't give a fix on the aircraft.  Useless.
Location Location Location

But how many ground stations, and how many raw reports does PP-MLAT need to get a fix?  I just don't understand why 168 raw reports aren't enough for PP-MLAT to even draw ONE hyper curve!!
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: radarspotter10 on February 01, 2010, 11:57:59 AM
Hi all.
I am enjoying my airnav receiver and the new software is great,  i have no problems or complaints,  so why do people persist in taking down airnav,  i am getting spam email from the vultures site now about Mlat,  but we all know about their the hidden agenda.
from pat
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on February 01, 2010, 12:22:17 PM
But how many ground stations, and how many raw reports does PP-MLAT need to get a fix?  I just don't understand why 168 raw reports aren't enough for PP-MLAT to even draw ONE hyper curve!!

You could have a million raw reports, and the timing data in them would still be useless unless the required number of users all have simultaneous sight, not only of the MLat target, but also of a reference ADS-B aircraft.

Think about it - professional MLat systems only work because they have extremely accurate time synchronisation between all of the ground stations, which requires an infrastructure far more complex than that available to the enthusiast community.  PlanePlotter neatly sidesteps this requirement, but only by including the ability to reverse-engineer the synchronisation using a reference aircraft.

AirNav are going to encounter exactly the same issues with their MLat solution - unless they are planning to wire all the word's RadarBoxes together :-)
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on February 01, 2010, 12:28:05 PM
>AirNav are going to encounter exactly the same issues

Dave: SBS/Kinetic could never release Mapmode-s because of technical difficulties. AirNav did so and our network is a huge success. Do you think we will do MLAT the way PP does it? The answer is no. Expect no amateur solutions for professional problems from us.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: klm on February 01, 2010, 12:53:50 PM
Quote
Are you seriously expecting AirNav to provide you with a network of worldwide, 24/7, professional MLat ground stations ?  If so, common sense will tell you to expect also a few more zeros to be added to the cost of your network subscription to finance that.

don't remember saying that i expect it from airnav.
but i know that most projects that depent on a few enthusiastic users eventualy dry up and vanish.
maybe some clever guy find a better solution for this.

and what the other networks concerns,  that's a total different story then Mlat, even if there are only 2 users that share there data you get the profit from it. (for the network that is)
its useful to get more shared data, but not necessary
there is a differents between need and useful.
as it looks now mlat wont work as it should because there is to few users that take part
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: bratters on February 01, 2010, 01:14:33 PM

Do you think we will do MLAT the way PP does it? The answer is no. Expect no amateur solutions for professional problems from us.

A new approach? Now that's got me interested.

Let's get back to old WW2 type triangulation  :)
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Allocator on February 01, 2010, 01:22:39 PM
Nothing old about auto-triangulation, still in use by the Distress and Diversion Cells at Swanwick and Prestwick :-)

Based on radio transmissions though, not Mode S data.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on February 01, 2010, 02:18:04 PM
Dave: SBS/Kinetic could never release Mapmode-s because of technical difficulties. AirNav did so and our network is a huge success. Do you think we will do MLAT the way PP does it? The answer is no. Expect no amateur solutions for professional problems from us.

Wow !  You mean you are going to wire all the world's Radarboxes together ?  :-)
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on February 01, 2010, 03:04:11 PM
Hi all.
I am enjoying my airnav receiver and the new software is great,  i have no problems or complaints,  so why do people persist in taking down airnav,  i am getting spam email from the vultures site now about Mlat,  but we all know about their the hidden agenda.
from pat


Hi Pat


I would dearly like to see a copy of that "spam" mail.....COAA will investigate immediately and inform the necessary authorities....so can I have a copy please to  examine?

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Runway 31 on February 01, 2010, 03:16:54 PM
Would it not be better rather than all the constant sniping if we can wait and see what Airnav are going to be producing. I am heartily sick of all the constant bickering and putting down of rival systems, each to their own.

If you dont like the Airnav System go to your preferred site and leave us all in peace to get on with what we like and to enjoy it in peace.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: radarspotter10 on February 01, 2010, 03:23:50 PM
Hi all.
I am enjoying my airnav receiver and the new software is great,  i have no problems or complaints,  so why do people persist in taking down airnav,  i am getting spam email from the vultures site now about Mlat,  but we all know about their the hidden agenda.
from pat


Hi Pat


I would dearly like to see a copy of that "spam" mail.....COAA will investigate immediately and inform the necessary authorities....so can I have a copy please to  examine?

Many thanks

John

Hi satcom
That seemed to hit a nerve. very interesting.
from pat
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: satcom on February 01, 2010, 03:35:45 PM
Just the opposite Pat...it exposed you for what you are :O)

Thank you.

Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Tallyho on February 01, 2010, 03:43:05 PM
At the end of the day guys... it's nice to have a choice :)

We now have a choice on what boxes to use (at least 3 now), what networks (various dependant on location) to use and what software to use (more popping up by the day).

We are a clever species and we usually find out what is best for us (which is not necessarily always best for the next person).

Personally I find space in my life for both RB (local) and PP (network and MLAT) and I am perfectly happy with that at this moment in time, will it change going forward, probably, who knows what the future brings unless someone brings out a peice of software called Crystal Ball v1.0 for seeing into the future, now that would be something to purchase !!!!

Keith
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: radarspotter10 on February 01, 2010, 03:43:24 PM
Just the opposite Pat...it exposed you for what you are :O)

Thank you.


Hi satcom.
I do not reveal my private email to every tom-**** or harry.
from pat
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: radarspotter10 on February 01, 2010, 03:55:20 PM
At the end of the day guys... it's nice to have a choice :)

We now have a choice on what boxes to use (at least 3 now), what networks (various dependant on location) to use and what software to use (more popping up by the day).

We are a clever species and we usually find out what is best for us (which is not necessarily always best for the next person).

Personally I find space in my life for both RB (local) and PP (network and MLAT) and I am perfectly happy with that at this moment in time, will it change going forward, probably, who knows what the future brings unless someone brings out a peice of software called Crystal Ball v1.0 for seeing into the future, now that would be something to purchase !!!!

Keith
Hi. Tallyho
I totally agree with you i bought my airnav box to enjoy the hobby, if a better system comes along well then we have a choose, send me the web address for Crystal Ball v1.0 i would buy one of them, lol.
from pat
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Runway 31 on February 01, 2010, 04:15:35 PM
Well written Tallyho, we do indeed have a choice, everything has its good and bad points and what we like about each is a personal choice but we can like our favourite without rubbishing the choices and likes of others.  Airnav is included in this as some of the responses given to others and other systems need some moderation in the replies.  Some thought needs to be given at times before pressing the post button

I like coming on to the forum to learn how others do things and to learn how I can make greater use of the system.  The constant bickering however is putting me off and like someone stated yesterday I can easily see why some can be put off posting due to the antagonism shown by some.

Airnav for me is a fantastic tool enabeling me to identify all those aircraft that once flew over the top of me unidentified.  I had a choice to make before I purchased it and I think I made the right one for me, others made the choice that suited them and it may be for a rival product.  If the developers can come up with something else to increase its use, making it more responsive to users needs, I for one would welcome it whether or not it suits my personal needs.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: bearcat on February 01, 2010, 05:22:47 PM
I agree with Runway 31 and Tallyho. All this thread seems to do is get people all revved up.

It would be nice to return to normality
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Tramline on February 01, 2010, 05:45:58 PM
I agree with Runway 31 and Tallyho. All this thread seems to do is get people all revved up.

It would be nice to return to normality

Yes. completely agree. 

I wish I could track non ADSB traffic like Mil and all the Flybe / Embraer kit and hopefully AirNav will find a way that works.

I would also say that if Pat is lying about the spam email from Radarspotters then he ought to apologise and we can all move forward.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: orkney on February 01, 2010, 05:57:05 PM
Hi,
Not sure if I'd call it spam exactly but we got a radarspotters email (without having ever been in touch with them). It is as follows-

We've been watching the current debate on the AirNav forum about using PlanePlotter to track and plot non-positional aircraft.

There is obviously some confusion which we would like to help resolve but AirNav has banned us from posting.

PlanePlotter is unique in being the only hobbyist solution that can plot a non-ADS-B aircraft on a map. That includes military and general aviation aircraft as well as those flybe and other airlines that don't transmit positions. Most virtual radar spotters want to find these elusive aircraft and PlanePlotter can help in most instances, though not all.

If you use PlanePlotter or just want to know more, there's a wealth of information on the Radarspotters Forum and you may find this recent post of some help.  There is also a PlanePlotter Getting Started Guide there too.

Mike

Dont know if this is of any interest to anyone but I suppose if the information hasn't been asked for it could be treated as spam.

Claire

PS I dont want to join in the arguements but am just letting you know.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: Runway 31 on February 01, 2010, 05:59:48 PM
I received the same unsolicated email.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: EMA on February 01, 2010, 06:21:40 PM

I like coming on to the forum to learn how others do things and to learn how I can make greater use of the system.  The constant bickering however is putting me off and like someone stated yesterday I can easily see why some can be put off posting due to the antagonism shown by some.

Airnav for me is a fantastic tool enabeling me to identify all those aircraft that once flew over the top of me unidentified.  I had a choice to make before I purchased it and I think I made the right one for me, others made the choice that suited them and it may be for a rival product.  If the developers can come up with something else to increase its use, making it more responsive to users needs, I for one would welcome it whether or not it suits my personal needs.

I totally agree, I have kept away from the forum for sometime due to the endless bickering of a minority of members.

I think the Radarbox is an excellent product. I have used alternatives but for my own personal use the radarbox serves my needs just fine for now.

We have made a choice lets just move on.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Support on February 01, 2010, 06:34:14 PM
We are glad that members are writing the above comments. It proves to us and others that the majority of the members are happy with our services and products.

Unfortunately it does also prove the minority group (who we have details of) who are determined to cause trouble here on our forum or elsewhere to damage to reputation of AirNav Systems and its products. This group clearly has alliances with our competitors who are desperate to try and keep there product selling in the marketplace against us.

Being the market leader you also make some enemies, we usually turn a blind eye to these however sometimes we have to react and put across our points. We as well wish those who want to cause trouble do so elsewhere otherwise we will take legal action.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: AirNav Development on February 01, 2010, 06:37:46 PM
As we all have noticed the same users that created the problems in this thread failed to properly address our comments so, one more time, a very limited number of users uses our forum with specific intentions.

It is widely known that the radarspotters internet group has, as sole purpose, to damage the image and reputation of AirNav Systems with false comments, unsolicited emails, false mentions and false facts. It is also known that this is being backed, directly and indirectly by our competitors who always have used this kind of games.

It is also widely known that the 2 administrators of the radarspotters group are directly or indirectly connected with Martin Lynch and Sons, a british company that distributes our competitors system. It is also known that they promote SBS, PP and don't allow free communication of RadarBox fans on their forum.

In resume our competitors created that forum with the sole purpose of attacking AirNav Systems indirectly (ie not on their own internet site but using external resources). They of course don't want to be seen as the ones behind radarspostters.

We now have dozens of facts that our attorney is collecting to file a lawsuit against the administrators of the radarspotters group. What is being done there, according to British law and our attorney, is totally illegal and every false statement made or allowed to be made by someone with responsibility in this area (the moderators/administrators of an internet group read by hundreds of users daily) cannot affect the reputation and good name of a company like ours. They don't simply allow it to happen but to it themselves. This of course halts the reputation of a good company like ours and a necessary compensation will need to be made - we are in free societies but one is not free to do whatever he wants just because he/she wants to do so.

So to all our users:
1- Please accept our apologies for this kind of discussion on our own forum;
2- Let's focus on what matters: RadarBox, MLAT, external updates of our databases and other great features we want to implement on RadarBox;
3- Not allow the same users (DaveReid, etc) to constantly focus on the same old facts for their own interest;
4- Concentrate on what's coming at AirNav in the next weeks/months: starting with the release of RadarBox 3D which is about to be released;

We are totally aware that this kind of posts are annoying for most of you. If that is the case, we apologize. Simply skip reading them and focus on what we all like: tracking flights and bringing innovation to our hobby.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: tarbat on February 01, 2010, 06:53:45 PM
2- Let's focus on what matters: RadarBox, MLAT, external updates of our databases and other great features we want to implement on RadarBox;
3- Not allow the same users (DaveReid, etc) to constantly focus on the same old facts for their own interest;
4- Concentrate on what's coming at AirNav in the next weeks/months: starting with the release of RadarBox 3D which is about to be released;

And so say all of us.

Maybe it's time to implement the SMF mod to allow forum members to set an "ignore" flag against certain users. ;)
http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=185
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: anorak on February 01, 2010, 07:39:29 PM
By the way where are all the FlyBe aircraft?
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: DaveReid on February 01, 2010, 08:07:06 PM
3- Not allow the same users (DaveReid, etc) to constantly focus on the same old facts for their own interest;

Wow !  Fame at last !

I'd like to apologise unreservedly for any of my 900-odd posts which may inadvertently have been helpful, like today's outlining how PP MLat works, or yesterday's explaining the difference between the live and delayed network, or Thursday's answering a query on WebTrak, or Monday's response to a question on the Il-76, or the countless ones trying (unsuccessfully) to help AirNav understand the difference between track/heading and TAS/IAS ...

Clearly I will now be confining my efforts to living up to my new-found reputation.
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: jannuh on February 01, 2010, 08:55:12 PM
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

I expect the seven commandments will be declared within 1 day...   ;-)
Title: Re: OK, so where are all the Flybe aircraft ??? (Radarbox nr Exeter, Devon)
Post by: radarspotter10 on February 01, 2010, 11:15:58 PM
hi AirNav Development
I agree airnav enough is enough, lets get on with our hobby and the good work your doing for the hobby.
from pat