AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: AirNav Development on October 01, 2009, 01:01:04 AM
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Please use this thread to make any comments on the just released "AirNav RadarBox Real-Time Network".
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working ok this end
had to drop and drag my photos to new version, now ok all photo transferred
from pat
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What's working ok from your end Pat :)
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The RadarBox Realtime Network looks interesting! Good work Airnav.
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It is important to note that on the real-time network flights are updated each 20 secs (not 30 secs as with the 5 minutes delayed network) so any user will be able to see flights moving live all over the world.
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Is the realtime network live for everyone, or is there a subscription/signup for it?
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Thanks for the info Airnav Dev. The Real-Time network feature looks cool. To see live flights moving all over the world, brilliant. I like it :)
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I think that it is great. However I am interested to know what has changed from a "legal" point of view that now allows this to happen. I thought the problem all along was that there was a supposed security issue - has that now been removed? I am all for it, don't get me wrong, but why the sudden change?
Cheers
M
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working ok this end
had to drop and drag my photos to new version, now ok all photo transferred
RadarBox Network Real-Time Access:
Semi-Annual - EUR € 59.95 per 6 months
Monthly - EUR € 14.95 per month
i will have to think about it. but it looks cool.
from pat
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We have decided to release the real-time network after discussions with our legal team.
The Network is now real-time in graphical terms: all what you see (grids and maps) is in real-time.
Note that Raw data feed (30003 output port) used by a few users to send data to external applications, is still delayed 5 minutes (so no one will be able to feed external applications with raw data in real-time).
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So far real fine here in USA.
I did upgrade install using Windows Vista and much
better results than last beta.
All my previous data is there and getting more aircraft id's.
No bugs yet.
Thanks
Mark
Maryland
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Could you explain the situation regarding the new network as it applies to the free network subscription for the first year? Is it included in that or not?
And, once the first year is over, is the previous delayed network subscription still available? I note that the real-time network is about double the cost, so if the original offering is no longer available it means that anyone wanting network access will have to pay more.
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You'll know if you're using the real-time network by the network connection icon:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2531/3970579771_c441193617_o.jpg)
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I think a couple of points need clarifying for those of us who don't fully understand the implications.
How does a user take advantage of this "real time" network? It would seem it is a pre-requisite to have v3.06 installed - then what? Is there a new sign-up procedure? Is the first year without further cost? Will our existing user details be sufficient to use this new version? These are questions we need to have firm answers to.
Also, is this TRUE real time throughout, or merely extrapolated projection? Not a criticism, just asking.
DC
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You'll know if you're using the real-time network by the network connection icon:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2531/3970579771_c441193617_o.jpg)
OK, well now I've seen the order page I realise that the existing delayed network subscription is available still, however I'm not sure about whether this new beta continues to use the delayed network or whether by default it uses the real-time network. Is this selectable?
I ask because I'd like to be able to see the difference between the two services in terms of performance before I decide which one to choose.
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I think a couple of points need clarifying for those of us who don't fully understand the implications.
How does a user take advantage of this "real time" network? It would seem it is a pre-requisite to have v3.06 installed - then what? Is there a new sign-up procedure? Is the first year without further cost? Will our existing user details be sufficient to use this new version? These are questions we need to have firm answers to.
Also, is this TRUE real time throughout, or merely extrapolated projection? Not a criticism, just asking.
DC
My understanding is it's exactly as it was before.. except it's real time, instead of delayed 5 minutes.. Eg. You access it the same way, still get the first year free, and still requires a subscription to continue after the first year.
That's how I understand it.
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Ah, but do us users of 2 years standing or more get this first "free" year, or do we have to pay from the outset because we've already had a "free" year initially? I would have thought important details like this would be disseminated to existing users on this forum in simple to understand terms.
DC
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The customers who already have had there free year won't get an extra one to use this service. As this is a beta we haven't fully decided whether we can offer a trial for the Live network for customers who have already used up there time.
Our intial requirement is to confirm its all working fine.
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The customers who already have had there free year won't get an extra one to use this service. As this is a beta we haven't fully decided whether we can offer a trial for the Live network for customers who have already used up there time.
Our intial requirement is to confirm its all working fine.
So are you saying that, if we are still within our first year, that the beta provides the real-time network?
One aspect that interests me is how to compare what you see on the screen with real-time vs delayed network. Such an ability to view both separately (on a trial basis) would then enable the user to decide which subscription to purchase once their 1st year of network use is over.
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You'll know if you're using the real-time network by the network connection icon:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2531/3970579771_c441193617_o.jpg)
I've clearly done something wrong, though I'm not sure what - here's 3.06 running, but still with the 30-second update interval and no indication of the network being real-time:
(http://www.civilaircraftregisters.org/Mode_S_Resources/ANRB306.gif)
What else do I need to do ?
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What about the map display, does this provide trail lines that are unbroken or does it show as a dashed line indicating delayed data?
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Just got a quick question about how the network works.. If two or more people are tracking the same aircraft, which one is displayed on the map? Eg. we all have different position data, some have lost the position data all together, who's aircraft position data is used/shown on the map?
The reason i'm asking is I have a location issue whereby my SBS-1 tends to only keep aircraft for short periods of time. I've ordered a RB this morning and up until this announcement wasn't going to use the network simply because I didn't believe a 5 minute delay had any point. Now that it's real time, it changes the whole dynamic and could solve my losing of position data all the time.
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It's customary for existing users of a product to be offered preferential terms for any upgrade or cost-incurring change, will that apply to this product?
DC
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What about the map display, does this provide trail lines that are unbroken or does it show as a dashed line indicating delayed data?
I don't have any trail lines showing, but looking at LHR traffic on the network compared to my SBS (and to looking out my window!) tells me that I'm still seeing 5-minute-delayed network traffic with 3.06.
AirNav ?
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I've clearly done something wrong, though I'm not sure what - here's 3.06 running, but still with the 30-second update interval and no indication of the network being real-time:
I think you may need to subscribe, but the page referenced doesn't have the details for the "Personal" realtime network (only the personal delayed network, which is free for the first year).
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=3481.msg33497#msg33497
RadarBox Network Real-Time Access:
Semi-Annual - EUR € 59.95 per 6 months
Monthly - EUR € 14.95 per month
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Many Thanks Airnav
To the people that have purchased this subscription, do you think its much better than the 5 min delay?
Cheers John
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AFAIK, your account needs to be "flagged" as a real-time network account. During beta testing Airnav activated it on my account to enable beta-testing, so I'm guessing that:
1. By default, you'll still be on the delayed network.
2. If you pay the real-time subscription, then you'll get the real-time network.
And yes, it's as real-time as possible. It gets data from the Airnav server every 20 seconds, and their server gets real-time data from Radarboxes on the network. So the display could be around 20-25 seconds behind real-life.
In testing, I found the Airnav real-time network was more up-to-date than another flight sharing network, which I used for comparison. The transition from hardware to network flights works very well, but you may need to reduce your hardware timeouts to get the best from the real-time network.
Some example transition videos on my Youtube at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEJOHvQ4Bbw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiiLcJhjaOA
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AFAIK, your account needs to be "flagged" as a real-time network account. During beta testing Airnav activated it on my account to enable beta-testing, so I'm guessing that:
1. By default, you'll still be on the delayed network.
2. If you pay the real-time subscription, then you'll get the real-time network.
Well I'm looking at a page (www.airnavsystems.com/RadarBox/order.html) that's telling me I get free access to the network for a year, then I can pay my 14.95 Euros per month for continuing access to real-time data.
So where do I sign up to get "flagged" as a real-time network account for the remainder of my free period ?
And, no disrespect intended, but shouldn't AirNav be answering basic questions like this themselves ?
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Hi Dave
I have the same problem with the Real Time network and I was a beta tester so it's not just you that cannot use it. ;-)
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So where do I sign up to get "flagged" as a real-time network account for the remainder of my free period ?
My guess is that you pay your £14.31 per month, and get the real-time network. No mention of a "discounted" price during the first year.
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I think I'll hang fire until there is a more comprehensive explanation as to what's involved for existing users, and how it all works, and what to expect when it's all running - is it a separate programme, or is it an add-on to the existing one? So little comprehensive information. There needs to be a definitive (and accurate) description from the manufacturer. Until then, I'll wait.
DC
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So to clarify, only Tarbat can see the real time network at the moment with this beta?
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So to clarify, only Tarbat can see the real time network at the moment with this beta?
And one other beta-tester AFAIK.
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Our intial requirement is to confirm its all working fine.
So this request only applied to two people?
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So where do I sign up to get "flagged" as a real-time network account for the remainder of my free period ?
My guess is that you pay your £14.31 per month, and get the real-time network. No mention of a "discounted" price during the first year.
I doubt anyone will pay without seeing how it works first.
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Ok lets clear up things. As things are moving fast (even for us : )
1.) Access to Live network is only open to those who have paid for the live network (or some closed beta testers)
2.) This is still beta so we are rolling it out and testing, so we MAY allow a few trials. This needs to be discussed internaly.
3.) No free year for Live network is being given at the moment.
For those who are saying we want to see it and compare to the delayed network: The only difference between the two is that one is Live (subject to internet delay of uploading and then downloading) and its being updated every 20 seconds.
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At least now I know I am not going to be viewing a live network even with the beta.
I think the initial wording was a bit confusing for many of us.
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I make that one year free on 5 minute delay then pay-as-you-go on realtime. I still fancy some sort of trial period- say 7 days - for evaluation myself.
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i will stick to the delayed network for now, i do not find the real time feature so important for me, and i think i will choose the cheapest solution, at least until i have time to evaluate well the advantages.
frank
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2. If you pay the real-time subscription, then you'll get the real-time network.
I did and I do and I concur with the comments made by Tarbat.
Regards,
Peter
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Generally lurk here... I only use my (expensive) Radarbox occasionally so really do not wish to spend much money on this 'hobby'. But I would like to say that the idea that Real time network data is double the cost is a real kick in the teeth for people. Subs for delayed data is already quite high, which makes one think twice about extending the 'account' . The release was vague enough for many to be confused about who and how to get access. Personally I think that the high cost of the new network is pants! I guess the release of the 3D in november will come with somewhat similar added cost!
Just my 2p worth
cheers!
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In fact I would go as far as to say that if the original price structure was kept I might (stress might) have been interested in renewing my account, but the attempt to squeeze hobbyists for some more wonga, for what they should have had from the get go, is a little bit much.
cheers!
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vaio,
1.) This is a beta release not a full release.
2.) The network subscription is not expensive when you realise the servers required to keep this running and the very large network demands.
The choice is yours, we haven't switched delayed off and forced everyone to pay for the Live one.
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Now that AirNav have taken legal advice that live sharing is OK, one wonders if another company will re-look at their live sharing, as they had planned to offer this free of charge - we will just have to wait and see. The improvements that have come with 3.06 have meant more aircraft for me so the live sharing will be good!
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Note that Raw data feed (30003 output port) used by a few users to send data to external applications, is still delayed 5 minutes (so no one will be able to feed external applications with raw data in real-time).
As they say: move two steps forward, and then back one.
Crippled software is still crippled software.
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hi all.
I like the idea of real time on the network, will have a think about it, not really fussed on what going elsewhere, my local flights is far enough for me, and the price well for just network and i have a good range n my flights, maybe no is the answer to costly?.
RadarBox Network Real-Time Access:
Semi-Annual - EUR € 59.95 per 6 months
Monthly - EUR € 14.95 per month
plus your network yearly subscription, i think?
this is just my option, my mate in England who's coverage from his house is bad, would love it.
from pat in Ireland
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...one wonders if another company will re-look at their live sharing...
I don't think the other "company" will be around much longer. The product is overdesigned, and the software is crippled.
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vaio,
1.) This is a beta release not a full release.
2.) The network subscription is not expensive when you realise the servers required to keep this running and the very large network demands.
The choice is yours, we haven't switched delayed off and forced everyone to pay for the Live one.
Understand, but you are you saying that you invest in separate servers for the real time data? It is a little disingenuous what you say, I did not make ANY comment regarding FORCING anyone. I feel that you really are just trying to put the squeeze on your customers, you could simply allow real time data on your current servers and then find that your subscriptions would increase. But, hey, that is my opinion.
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As they say: move two steps forward, and then back one.
Crippled software is still crippled software.
Too much of a risk as I am sure you already know, doing that we could end up risking the network not being used or further networks being setup making ours redundant. Further if the live data was passed around, customers in areas covered by RBs would not need to buy RadarBoxes hence sales would nose dive.
This has been all discussed before. So just a recap on why.
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Have loaded Beta 3.6. but since changing I am not getting the network. It should not be so as I have only in the last month paid for the coming years subscriptions.
Any ideas please - and before you ask - yes my internet connection is functioning properly?????????
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Your software firewall probally needs to allow the new version to connect.
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I have checked my ESET firewall and it is showing Allow next to all versions of ANRFB listed.
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Well I'm looking at a page (www.airnavsystems.com/RadarBox/order.html) that's telling me I get free access to the network for a year, then I can pay my 14.95 Euros per month for continuing access to real-time data.
So where do I sign up to get "flagged" as a real-time network account for the remainder of my free period ?
And, no disrespect intended, but shouldn't AirNav be answering basic questions like this themselves ?
Also, if you're within the first year, surely the real-time premium should be the difference between delayed and real-time?
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For those who are saying we want to see it and compare to the delayed network: The only difference between the two is that one is Live (subject to internet delay of uploading and then downloading) and its being updated every 20 seconds.
So there is no way of having a short period where a comparison can be made?
I think it would be very beneficial to offer this. I'd also suggest that you allow those within their first year to upgrade to real-time for a lower cost, say the difference between the two subscription costs.
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Do be honest we are not sure why this comparison needs to be made. It seems to us customers just want a trial just to see it not to compare anything as main change is its just Live.
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Sorry,
Being new and a bit 'green'; Does this Real-Time mean the 5min delay will be removed ?
I thought this was an imposed 'security' issue ?
Cheers,
Paul.
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As they say: move two steps forward, and then back one.
Crippled software is still crippled software.
Too much of a risk as I am sure you already know, doing that we could end up risking the network not being used or further networks being setup making ours redundant. Further if the live data was passed around, customers in areas covered by RBs would not need to buy RadarBoxes hence sales would nose dive.
This has been all discussed before. So just a recap on why.
I do see your point, so perhaps it's worth considering how to spread the data via p2p rather than relying on servers with expensive bandwidth and running costs.
Sooner or later someone will design hardware with an open basis, and then software to exploit it. Having a plan to maintain your business in the face of such competition would be sensible.
Purely my $0.02 you know.
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Do be honest we are not sure why this comparison needs to be made. It seems to us customers just want a trial just to see it not to compare anything as main change is its just Live.
Yes I see that, but since my experience of the network has been that v2.01 did not correctly transition flights from local to network coverage, and up until today's release v3.01 beta had an over-aggressive timeout leading to network flights disappearing and then reappearing, I was hoping to be able to see how things worked for me at the boundary between what I can see on my own RB and what others see.
But I do understand that all of these features cause you extra work, it might just be worth it to attract more subscribers.
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My guess is that you pay your £14.31 per month, and get the real-time network. No mention of a "discounted" price during the first year.
Well that's not how I would interpret this:
(http://www.civilaircraftregisters.org/Mode_S_Resources/Network%20Personal%20Access%20is%20free%20for%20the%20first%20year.gif)
It states pretty clearly Network Personal Access is free for the first year without making any distinction between delayed and real-time access, apart from the cost obviously.
But I take your point - we're both trying to second-guess the answer to a question that AirNav could easily clarify if they wanted to.
Is anyone there ?
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Do be honest we are not sure why this comparison needs to be made. It seems to us customers just want a trial just to see it not to compare anything as main change is its just Live.
Why don't you be really honest and say 'we have found a way to charge our customers extra'
oh, that would be bad eh? like you attempting to make us believe that your server costs have more than doubled?
(I guess your professional users do not squeak so much when asked to fork over large quantities of wonga)
Maybe you could be really honest with some user figures and server costs to help us (customers) make a decision about how much you really care about your 'customers'? (remember our initial investment in your chinese £400 box)
I get the feeling that honest is a word that you really attempt to stretch the meaning of. I am sorry if you do not like what I write, but it is my opinion.
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I purchased my box in may 09 are airnav now saying they want €15extra a month on top of the price I have already paid for my box + 12 month 1st year software?
And when 3d comes out will airnav then be saying they want another €15 a month on top of extra €15 a no time delay month + the monthly subscription as well
This is getting very expensive
€30 subcription a month for 3D and none 5 min updates + the normal monthly sub on top of that as well it wont be that far of €45 a month I cannot afford that
Can I ask airnav to reply to this post only so I dont get confused and get a straight answer please
Puddy
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That is why I asked my question. I recently paid for another year but 3.06 is not allowing me access to the network. I have tried turning the Firewall off for a period but it still does not work. Can I please have some assurance that by paying in August for another year I am allowed to use 3.06 and what could possibly be stopping me from doing so.
Regards
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Why don't you be really honest and say 'we have found a way to charge our customers extra'
Now that's being both unfair and naive. Businesses survive and grow by offering more value to customers. As a customer, you have the ability, and the right, to judge how much additional value live data represents, and how much extra, if anything, you would be prepared to pay for it.
How much it costs AirNav to provide live, as opposed to delayed, data is completely irrelevant.
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Airnav,
I have just plugged my box into my laptop showing 3.1 and it immediately went onto the network showing 815 records. So what can I do. Turning the firewall completely off did not change anything and also chaning the settings to allow outbound and inbound data for the program did not either.
Regards
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I see the usual criers are back, did not take long did it.
FROM PAT
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Sorry guys,
As a new user, I'm somewhat confused. When I started ferreting around regards the Airnav RadarBox (less than a week ago) All I could see was references to this 5 min delay and the 'security issues' that dictated this.
Now, less than a week later, Airnav are offering a 'Live' data feed.
I have just purchased the RB and have yet to register it. (Still un-opened in the box).
Will I get the 'live' data feed for my first 12 months ? How does this work for brand new users about to register?
Cheers,
Paul.
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For what it's worth, my first year is nearly up and I had decided NOT to pay a subscription for Network.
This morning when I initially read about realtime network I had a re-think and decided that I would be prepared to subscribe. However now that I've learnt that the cost has doubled, I'm back to thinking NO network subscription for me in future.
That's a customer lost and I reckon I'm probably not alone thinking along these lines.
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Looking at the un-opened box with the $800AUS price sticker on and having read some of these comments, I'm starting to wonder if I've been taken for a mug.
Maybe It's just as well I haven't yet opened the box.
And whats happened to this 3D version ? I thought Airnav would be too busy with that to worry about beta version whatever and live data ?
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The real-time data and the 20 second update rate works exceptionally well in the busy airspace around London Heathrow :-) The transition from Network to Live (bearing in mind that the Network is now 'live' too) and back again works very well. Watching the Heathrow rush hour - although it's busy pretty much all of the time now - and listening to the Heathrow Director and TMA controllers on my scanner, really shows the difference the real-time data provides.
Tarbat posted some kinks to the transition here on the forum and that is exactly what I've seen. The real-time network data is just what I have been waiting for since I purchased SBS-1 on this promise over 3 years ago! Although I see people here saying that they are not interested in traffic 'outside their area', they are overlooking the fact that the Network could significantly improve their coverage WITHIN their area. Without the Network, I can see traffic in all 4 London holds and I can watch the traffic being fed into Heathrow and climbing out for departure. With the Network, I can watch the same for Stansted, Gatwick, London City and if I want to look a bit further, Birmingham. I have the altitude filter in to block out anything above 15,000 ft and the map only zoomed out to 50 miles or so - sometimes much less. So ALL this traffic is in 'my area' but without the Network, I wouldn't see half of it.
So, thank you AirNav for achieving my dream of real-time data and overcoming my disappointment with my previous box, purchased for GBP 499 on the promise of network data.
As for the cost, it's a simple choice with no 'making the customer pay more for the same'.
- Only watch live traffic picked up by the antenna - FREE
- Watch 5 minute delayed Network data - free for the first 12 months, then a low monthly payment
- Watch everything in real-time - pay a higher monthly fee.
It's all about having the choice to do what you want, and I like that ;-)
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Looking at the un-opened box with the $800AUS price sticker on and having read some of these comments, I'm starting to wonder if I've been taken for a mug.
Maybe It's just as well I haven't yet opened the box.
The product you purchased has not changed unless you want real time network which you knew you were not getting when you purchased. I don't see how they have taken you for a mug?
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Why don't you be really honest and say 'we have found a way to charge our customers extra'
Now that's being both unfair and naive. Businesses survive and grow by offering more value to customers. As a customer, you have the ability, and the right, to judge how much additional value live data represents, and how much extra, if anything, you would be prepared to pay for it.
How much it costs AirNav to provide live, as opposed to delayed, data is completely irrelevant.
Now who is being unfair?
As to calling me naive an ad hominem atttack? You are not being very nice.
I called you on your assertion about server costs, to which you did not reply.
As far as your last sentence re. irrelevant costs, please re-read you original message:
Quote from: AirNav Support on Today at 11:14:12 am
vaio,
1.) This is a beta release not a full release.
2.) The network subscription is not expensive when you realise the servers required to keep this running and the very large network demands.
The choice is yours, we haven't switched delayed off and forced everyone to pay for the Live one.
Also to quote you "Businesses survive and grow by offering more value to customers." You have stretched the meaning here too, maybe if you had said ' 'more products' (instead of value) the reply would have been more genuine.
I understand that it is in your interest to (forgive me) screw your customers and you are doing a grand job telling us how wonderful you are. The fact remains you disingenuous original 'press release' was designed to obscure the reality of the network price hike. (Don't believe me? look at the posts on this thread, look how many do not understand what you attempt to do).
The simple fact is, by your veiled insult to me, you have shown to all how much you really CARE about your customers.
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Looking at the un-opened box with the $800AUS price sticker on and having read some of these comments, I'm starting to wonder if I've been taken for a mug.
Maybe It's just as well I haven't yet opened the box.
The product you purchased has not changed unless you want real time network which you knew you were not getting when you purchased. I don't see how they have taken you for a mug?
Just got that opinion from reading some of these posts.
And what's with this live data anyway? From what I read just days ago (old posts on this site) the reason for the delayed data was for security reasons which I figured related to the current 'mass paranoia' ala 911 ??
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Airnav,
I have just plugged my box into my laptop showing 3.1 and it immediately went onto the network showing 815 records. So what can I do. Turning the firewall completely off did not change anything and also chaning the settings to allow outbound and inbound data for the program did not either.
AirNav,
Just an update, after spending 20 minutes looking through all the possible settings in the ESET firewall, and by changing one without really knowing what it would do - I have got the Network back.
Sorry for not believing you when you said it was firewall earlier....:-)
Regards
Mike
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Looking at the un-opened box with the $800AUS price sticker on and having read some of these comments, I'm starting to wonder if I've been taken for a mug.
Maybe It's just as well I haven't yet opened the box.
The product you purchased has not changed unless you want real time network which you knew you were not getting when you purchased. I don't see how they have taken you for a mug?
I agree, now if AirNav had just announced new hardware that made your RadarBox obselete, then you would be right to feel hard done by. As it is, you can download the free software updates, use your free 12 months of 5 minute delayed Network traffic - or even subscribe to get the real-time data! Looks like a win-win to me :-)
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Looking at the un-opened box with the $800AUS price sticker on and having read some of these comments, I'm starting to wonder if I've been taken for a mug.
Maybe It's just as well I haven't yet opened the box.
The product you purchased has not changed unless you want real time network which you knew you were not getting when you purchased. I don't see how they have taken you for a mug?
I agree, now if AirNav had just announced new hardware that made your RadarBox obselete, then you would be right to feel hard done by. As it is, you can download the free software updates, use your free 12 months of 5 minute delayed Network traffic - or even subscribe to get the real-time data! Looks like a win-win to me :-)
Free? you paid £400 for the free software...
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Woah!
Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Just my immediate thoughts after reading through some of the comments in this discussion from more advanced users.
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Airnav,
I have just plugged my box into my laptop showing 3.1 and it immediately went onto the network showing 815 records. So what can I do. Turning the firewall completely off did not change anything and also chaning the settings to allow outbound and inbound data for the program did not either.
AirNav,
Just an update, after spending 20 minutes looking through all the possible settings in the ESET firewall, and by changing one without really knowing what it would do - I have got the Network back.
Sorry for not believing you when you said it was firewall earlier....:-)
Regards
Mike
hehe ESET firewall can be a bit of a bugger sometimes! I go to advanced settings and edit prog entry to 'ask' then it works ok!
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Looking at the un-opened box with the $800AUS price sticker on and having read some of these comments, I'm starting to wonder if I've been taken for a mug.
Maybe It's just as well I haven't yet opened the box.
The product you purchased has not changed unless you want real time network which you knew you were not getting when you purchased. I don't see how they have taken you for a mug?
I agree, now if AirNav had just announced new hardware that made your RadarBox obselete, then you would be right to feel hard done by. As it is, you can download the free software updates, use your free 12 months of 5 minute delayed Network traffic - or even subscribe to get the real-time data! Looks like a win-win to me :-)
Free? you paid £400 for the free software...
No, I paid GBP400 for a hardware and software package that I knew would receive through-life support and had the capability of sharing data. Actually having access to that data is a subscription service and I was well aware of that when I purchased. The free 12 months is a bonus.
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I'll just be using it for local stuff and not subscribing anyway.
It better be bloody good at that task for $800 bucks or I'll be pissed.
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Woah!
Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Just my immediate thoughts after reading through some of the comments in this discussion from more advanced users.
The product you have in the box will work as advertised on the box and with the new beta software you now have extra features.
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I'll just be using it for local stuff and not subscribing anyway.
It better be bloody good at that task for $800 bucks or I'll be pissed.
I am sure you will be happy :-)
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I have pondered whether to subscribe to the Network , my free time is about up, & was rapidly coming to the conclusion that I wouldn't based on the fact it wasn't live.If ,with this change to live network, there was a compromise between the network cost & the live cost I would consider it,but paying two subscriptions is the killer for me.
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Looking at the un-opened box with the $800AUS price sticker on and having read some of these comments, I'm starting to wonder if I've been taken for a mug.
Maybe It's just as well I haven't yet opened the box.
The product you purchased has not changed unless you want real time network which you knew you were not getting when you purchased. I don't see how they have taken you for a mug?
I agree, now if AirNav had just announced new hardware that made your RadarBox obselete, then you would be right to feel hard done by. As it is, you can download the free software updates, use your free 12 months of 5 minute delayed Network traffic - or even subscribe to get the real-time data! Looks like a win-win to me :-)
Free? you paid £400 for the free software...
No, I paid GBP400 for a hardware and software package that I knew would receive through-life support and had the capability of sharing data. Actually having access to that data is a subscription service and I was well aware of that when I purchased. The free 12 months is a bonus.
That is saying something different than what you did earlier.
I made a comment about the airnav business model which dictates squeezing the customer for (to use airnavs euphemism) a 'value' price hike.
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I have pondered whether to subscribe to the Network , my free time is about up, & was rapidly coming to the conclusion that I wouldn't based on the fact it wasn't live.If ,with this change to live network, there was a compromise between the network cost & the live cost I would consider it,but paying two subscriptions is the killer for me.
You won't pay 2 subscriptions. You will either pay for delayed data OR you will pay for real time data at 2 times the cost of the delayed data. It's not the cost of delayed plus the cost of real-time. That's how I understand it.
Now, I don't know how the cost will be calculated if you are already paying for delayed data - cancel delayed and subscribe to live?
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Looking at the un-opened box with the $800AUS price sticker on and having read some of these comments, I'm starting to wonder if I've been taken for a mug.
Maybe It's just as well I haven't yet opened the box.
The product you purchased has not changed unless you want real time network which you knew you were not getting when you purchased. I don't see how they have taken you for a mug?
I agree, now if AirNav had just announced new hardware that made your RadarBox obselete, then you would be right to feel hard done by. As it is, you can download the free software updates, use your free 12 months of 5 minute delayed Network traffic - or even subscribe to get the real-time data! Looks like a win-win to me :-)
Free? you paid £400 for the free software...
No, I paid GBP400 for a hardware and software package that I knew would receive through-life support and had the capability of sharing data. Actually having access to that data is a subscription service and I was well aware of that when I purchased. The free 12 months is a bonus.
That is saying something different than what you did earlier.
I made a comment about the airnav business model which dictates squeezing the customer for (to use airnavs euphemism) a 'value' price hike.
Sorry, got to go to work, no time to argue semantics with you - I've got better things to do.
Subscribe or don't subscribe, just please yourself and be happy!
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Can someone just answer my earlier q's as to why all the hype about 5m delay and the 'Security' issue.
Now, suddenly, all is ok. ?
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Ok, we are getting overloaded by lots of questions here (which is a good and bad thing :) - Also please note we have also annoyed a few fan of comeptitor products. So any bad behaviour by them or anyone will be mean post is deleted or banned while we handle the more than usual posts and support tickets.
Again let me remind people this is a beta so its not a full release. There are still a few issues and information to be confirmed.
To answer some of the questions below:
1.) Free access to the Live network has not been confirmed yet. As mentioned earlier we are discussing whether new customers of RB will be put on the Live or Delayed account. Current customers won't get a year free incase your wondering.
2.) Customers making comments about the price and bussiness model should stop. There are many factors to this which are not obvious to customers. Its easy to be arm chair bussiness person.
3.) Customers who are confused after buying. Please read the details on the website, if you purchase you get one years free access to the network. It is then your free will to choose to continue. (This is and has been stated clearly since the launch of RadarBox not something we have hidden)
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Can someone just answer my earlier q's as to why all the hype about 5m delay and the 'Security' issue.
Now, suddenly, all is ok. ?
Yeah, seem that the security hype has been negated by a lawyer and airnav are free to charge you extra for realtime network...
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I made a comment about the airnav business model which dictates squeezing the customer for (to use airnavs euphemism) a 'value' price hike.
Do you use the network today?
Not a thing has changed, you are not being forced into anything, other than you now have an extra option to view traffic in real time, I'd assume from your reply's that is not something of value to you though.
fwiw I rarely use the network feature. The data I would like to see live is available to me via my own radarbox.
tbh if I was even interested in some plane flying half way around the world, a 5 minute delay is not a big deal.
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Can someone just answer my earlier q's as to why all the hype about 5m delay and the 'Security' issue.
Now, suddenly, all is ok. ?
We have been in talks with our legal team for sometime about this issue and as many of you know it is a grey area. We have explored certain steps and legal team have worked hard to confirm whether its ok. We cannot go into further detail.
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Sorry,
Still confused over the 5 Minute delay 'Security' issue.
Why have you suddenly allowed 'live data' when I thought you were following accepted security protocol ??
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Free? you paid £400 for the free software...
[/quote]
vaio.
Look on it this way you need to buy the airnav box then get the free software to run it.
The same as you need to buy a car before you put the not so free petrol into it to run it.
hope this helps.
from pat in Ireland
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Ok, we are getting overloaded by lots of questions here (which is a good and bad thing :) - Also please note we have also annoyed a few fan of comeptitor products. So any bad behaviour by them or anyone will be mean post is deleted or banned while we handle the more than usual posts and support tickets.
Again let me remind people this is a beta so its not a full release. There are still a few issues and information to be confirmed.
To answer some of the questions below:
1.) Free access to the Live network has not been confirmed yet. As mentioned earlier we are discussing whether new customers of RB will be put on the Live or Delayed account. Current customers won't get a year free incase your wondering.
2.) Customers making comments about the price and bussiness model should stop. There are many factors to this which are not obvious to customers. Its easy to be arm chair bussiness person.
3.) Customers who are confused after buying. Please read the details on the website, if you purchase you get one years free access to the network. It is then your free will to choose to continue. (This is and has been stated clearly since the launch of RadarBox not something we have hidden)
OK I understand, it is acceptable for you to criticise and insult someone who has bought and uses your equipment "Its easy to be arm chair bussiness person."
Thank you for your constructive support Airnav.
You have made my day, no reasonable answers only insults, thanks
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Lordy, this is turning into another pig's ear.
Airnav, you've whetted everybody's appetite with a new, unexpected feature on software still in beta. Not only was it unexpected (but welcome), but it has also been the subject of much discussion here in the forum, with the final verdict being that you said you would NOT be introducing a delay-free article, for various reasons.
Now you HAVE introduced it, and want to charge extra for it. I can see the reasoning, but it's not really fair retrospectively, without some concession for existing users.
However, this no-delay feature itself appears to be under beta, as well, so why can't we ALL have the opportunity of evaluating it freely for a nominal period so we can ALL have first-hand experience of it before committing to an expensive extra?
And how will the forthcoming 3D version affect us all?
So many unknowns, so many imponderables. It would have been nice if you'd forewarned us, instead of which more confusion is injected into the whole thing.
So in essence, no delay - good thing, lack of introductory planning not so good. Additional expense, unexpected and unwelcome.
And Pat, or Val, or Robbie (all three of whom are proud to be Irish) - some of your unhelpful comments are better off unposted.
DC
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1.) Free access to the Live network has not been confirmed yet. As mentioned earlier we are discussing whether new customers of RB will be put on the Live or Delayed account. Current customers won't get a year free incase your wondering.
So I guess that begs the question, If AirNav decide to make the first free 12 months data "realtime" for new customers, will existing customers have the remainder of their initial 12 months upgraded to "realtime"?
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Sorry,
Still confused over the 5 Minute delay 'Security' issue.
Why have you suddenly allowed 'live data' when I thought you were following accepted security protocol ??
It has been explained. Our legal team has now given us the thumbs up. If you want the exact details we will not disclose them, the same way we didn't disclose the exact way why we couldn't display Live data.
Its on a need to know basis :)
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Free? you paid £400 for the free software...
vaio.
Look on it this way you need to buy the airnav box then get the free software to run it.
The same as you need to buy a car before you put the not so free petrol into it to run it.
hope this helps.
from pat in Ireland
[/quote]
I see where you are coming from Pat, my point was there is nothing 'free' from airnav.
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Ah well, we live and learn.
I think the users will dictate the ultimate charge in the end with their usage (or perhaps non usage).
I am happy with local traffic. Perhaps a novelty to watch global stuff at first then I will not renew the subscription.
Must admit, I'm looking forward to this 3D version. Hope Airnav get that happening soon.
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Still confused over the 5 Minute delay 'Security' issue.
There are many other websites publishing "live" ATC data (in a graphical display, not raw data).
Your own Radarbox displays the data it receives in realtime.
Effectively this just gives you access to what other radarbox users see around the world in real time. I can't really imagine why anyone would care about a 5 minute delay, but if you do, then you can do something about it.
After you've setup your own radarbox, you will see 5 minutes of flight time is effectively nothing. Unless your watching it fly over your house and you want to rush outside to see the real thing, it makes little difference.
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Too many posts coming in.
Deadcalm - Agree with your post. 3D version has no affect, different dev team.
vaio - Issues with cost have been discussed before (to death in some cases :) ) Please take a look at those posts to where we have explained our position and included details.
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AirNav,
As a gesture of goodwill to those of us that have just (in last month or so) renewed our Network fee, would it not be possible to turn the Years Delayed Network subscription into a Six months Live Network subscription. This would give some of use (like pensioners) a chance to see what it is really like - there is nothing like first hand experience - and also give us the chance to save up to pay the next and subsequent installments.
Regards
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A
Ok, we are getting overloaded by lots of questions here (which is a good and bad thing :) - Also please note we have also annoyed a few fan of comeptitor products. So any bad behaviour by them or anyone will be mean post is deleted or banned while we handle the more than usual posts and support tickets.
Again let me remind people this is a beta so its not a full release. There are still a few issues and information to be confirmed.
To answer some of the questions below:
1.) Free access to the Live network has not been confirmed yet. As mentioned earlier we are discussing whether new customers of RB will be put on the Live or Delayed account. Current customers won't get a year free incase your wondering.
2.) Customers making comments about the price and bussiness model should stop. There are many factors to this which are not obvious to customers. Its easy to be arm chair bussiness person.
3.) Customers who are confused after buying. Please read the details on the website, if you purchase you get one years free access to the network. It is then your free will to choose to continue. (This is and has been stated clearly since the launch of RadarBox not something we have hidden)
OK I understand, it is acceptable for you to criticise and insult someone who has bought and uses your equipment "Its easy to be arm chair bussiness person."
Thank you for your constructive support Airnav.
You have made my day, no reasonable answers only insults, thanks
Actually, to be honest, I bought Airnav Suite 3 or was it 4 or something way back in 1998 and was given the same rude treatment (and to be frank, rather crap product) then, as I see happening now.
When I dared to query why the software was 'this or that' the developer (some dude in Portugal) got all upset and we exchanged some rather heated emails.
That was over 10 years ago and I thought this new offering looked good.
I see now nothing has changed. They (airnav) have just got uglier and greedier
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I made a comment about the airnav business model which dictates squeezing the customer for (to use airnavs euphemism) a 'value' price hike.
Do you use the network today?
Not a thing has changed, you are not being forced into anything, other than you now have an extra option to view traffic in real time, I'd assume from your reply's that is not something of value to you though.
fwiw I rarely use the network feature. The data I would like to see live is available to me via my own radarbox.
tbh if I was even interested in some plane flying half way around the world, a 5 minute delay is not a big deal.
No have not used radarbox for a few weeks.
Do you read the posts? Forced??? I do not talk about forced airnav brought up forced in a non-reply, not me.
re. Value re-read the posts.
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Too many posts coming in.
Deadcalm - Agree with your post. 3D version has no affect, different dev team.
vaio - Issues with cost have been discussed before (to death in some cases :) ) Please take a look at those posts to where we have explained our position and included details.
Be that as it may, but you had no right to issue ad hominem attack at me then proceed to call me an arm chair businessman,(you do not know what I do for buisness) in fact I would suggest that you apologise for your rudeness.
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MrT,
As your new you may have missed the discussions. BUT we have been through price and bussiness model question before many times and answered detailed questions on where are costs are going regarding the network. At the end of the day a few customers willing to back down and wanted many items for free. This cannot be done without us going bankrupt.
Please remember you are posting on a forum were we replying every few minutes and a new beta has just been released. That is listening to customers.
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i will stick to the delayed network for now, i do not find the real time feature so important for me, and i think i will choose the cheapest solution, at least until i have time to evaluate well the advantages.
frank
Frank,
I'm with you on that one. I like to personally see an aircraft flying over or nearby my house so thst I can log it as a true sighting. The 5 minute delayed network is fine for me as a reference source only as obviously you cannot personally see aircraft thousands of miles away and therefore they cannot be logged as true sightings. To me the addition of a 'live' network is really just an added expense.
Ian
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vaio,
We did not single you out at all so no need to get defensive and attack us further.
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MrT,
As your new you may have missed the discussions. BUT we have been through price and bussiness model question before many times and answered detailed questions on where are costs are going regarding the network. At the end of the day a few customers willing to back down and wanted many items for free. This cannot be done without us going bankrupt.
Please remember you are posting on a forum were we replying every few minutes and a new beta has just been released. That is listening to customers.
Ok, well that was a long time back and I'm hoping that my purchase will live up to its reputation (and I'm sure it will).
There is just a lot of confusing information for a new purchaser at present.
3D one moment, talk of the 5min Delay the next, then Live data under the next breath.
Also, could you please clarify your pricing policy in clear terms and conditions somewhere on your website (if not already done by time of this post).
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vaio,
We did not single you out at all so no need to get defensive and attack us further.
Not defensive at all, just don't much care for people who use ad hominim and non sequitur as their argument.
Anyway you can assume that I will definitely not be buying into any of your subscription service.
As a long time user of airnav products (airnav suite, acars and radarbox) I am saddened at your attitude towards your customers.
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I dont see it as real time..(yes im with the 3.06)
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However, this no-delay feature itself appears to be under beta, as well, so why can't we ALL have the opportunity of evaluating it freely for a nominal period so we can ALL have first-hand experience of it before committing to an expensive extra?
I suppose that the best thing to do (in the absence of a short free "taster" period) is to invest in a one month real-time subscription and see how it pans out.
And how will the forthcoming 3D version affect us all?
A good question. It will be interesting to see whether Airnav choose to maintain two versions once 3D is released.
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Well, yes, Brian, that's one way but who is going to invest for a month in an ongoing beta which may or may not deliver? I want to see it working for myself before I invest. You really can't charge the punters for a beta anything.
I'll add that the way to go should be to introduce this option, as a beta, for say, a month, (or until it becomes a robust release candidate) with the proviso that a charge will be levied on those who wish to retain the feature once publicly released. But until it's stable (and the new version 3 is stable, for that matter), it's not really on to levy any charge at all.
DC
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Well, yes, Brian, that's one way but who is going to invest for a month in an ongoing beta which may or may not deliver? I want to see it working for myself before I invest. You really can't charge the punters for a beta anything.
You may be correct, I was looking for a cheap way to get access to this new feature so I can get a feel for whether it does what I want and is reliable.
Perhaps now we'll see Airnav consider how to provide that "taster", but I think they feel that since you get the 1 year free delayed network anyway you will have seen what it does and how it works already.
I have to say that I was beginning to wonder if I would purchase a network sub in January, but now that it can be live it makes it more likely that I will. I know that people will say how can it matter when the aircraft is so far away but to me accuracy is everything and when I see delayed network traffic, especially when mixed with live local traffic, it makes me grind my teeth. The extra cost of live data is cheaper than my dentist!
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i will stick to the delayed network for now, i do not find the real time feature so important for me, and i think i will choose the cheapest solution, at least until i have time to evaluate well the advantages.
frank
Frank,
I'm with you on that one. I like to personally see an aircraft flying over or nearby my house so thst I can log it as a true sighting. The 5 minute delayed network is fine for me as a reference source only as obviously you cannot personally see aircraft thousands of miles away and therefore they cannot be logged as true sightings. To me the addition of a 'live' network is really just an added expense.
Ian
ian you sum up my thoughts exactly, i always have my sbs1 for local traffic which is a bit more sensitive than the rb. even if i see flights on the other side of the earth with a 5 minute delay it's fine for me. i have no professional needs. the only thing i would pay for is to see the heavy military traffic above my head. i am near frasca range and see (with my eyes only) tens of sorties every day. anyway in my country it is a criminal offence to listen to any transmission that is not commercial or ham, if you have a license. if you are crazy enough to even go near an airport with a scanner you get arrested. no questions asked.
frank
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Lordy, this is turning into another pig's ear.
Airnav, you've whetted everybody's appetite with a new, unexpected feature on software still in beta. Not only was it unexpected (but welcome), but it has also been the subject of much discussion here in the forum, with the final verdict being that you said you would NOT be introducing a delay-free article, for various reasons.
Now you HAVE introduced it, and want to charge extra for it. I can see the reasoning, but it's not really fair retrospectively, without some concession for existing users.
However, this no-delay feature itself appears to be under beta, as well, so why can't we ALL have the opportunity of evaluating it freely for a nominal period so we can ALL have first-hand experience of it before committing to an expensive extra?
And how will the forthcoming 3D version affect us all?
So many unknowns, so many imponderables. It would have been nice if you'd forewarned us, instead of which more confusion is injected into the whole thing.
So in essence, no delay - good thing, lack of introductory planning not so good. Additional expense, unexpected and unwelcome.
And Pat, or Val, or Robbie (all three of whom are proud to be Irish) - some of your unhelpful comments are better off unposted.
DC
deadclam
Your not on the other site now,deadcalm, its not up to you to say if my posts are ok or not,
And yes deadcalm i am Irish, and i strongly resent you sniping at that fact, what have you got against the Irish
remember deadclam your not on the vultures site now, go back there and start preaching.
from pat in Ireland
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i will stick to the delayed network for now, i do not find the real time feature so important for me, and i think i will choose the cheapest solution, at least until i have time to evaluate well the advantages.
frank
Frank,
I'm with you on that one. I like to personally see an aircraft flying over or nearby my house so thst I can log it as a true sighting. The 5 minute delayed network is fine for me as a reference source only as obviously you cannot personally see aircraft thousands of miles away and therefore they cannot be logged as true sightings. To me the addition of a 'live' network is really just an added expense.
Ian
ian you sum up my thoughts exactly, i always have my sbs1 for local traffic which is a bit more sensitive than the rb. even if i see flights on the other side of the earth with a 5 minute delay it's fine for me. i have no professional needs. the only thing i would pay for is to see the heavy military traffic above my head. i am near frasca range and see (with my eyes only) tens of sorties every day
frank
Unfortunately Frank you're not going to get much help with your military traffic tie-ups as they seldom transmit ADSB as I'm sure you are aware.
Ian
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i know ian, sometimes the do but transmit only altitude, i wonder how collisons are avoided?
frank
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We are preparing a detailed answer to all of the questions that appeared on this thread. Stby for further news.
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i know ian, sometimes the do but transmit only altitude, i wonder how collisons are avoided?
Aircraft have been avoiding collisions for 100 years without ADS-B :-)
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i know ian, sometimes the do but transmit only altitude, i wonder how collisons are avoided?
Aircraft have been avoiding collisions for 100 years without ADS-B :-)
a yes your right, the wright brother did not use it. Alcock and Brown and Lindbergh did not need it
from pat in ireland
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I agree with Frank and Ian's posts. In my view and for what I use RB for, I don't see any point for real-time data on aircraft that are hundreds of miles away. My antenna can pick up transmitting aircraft that I can see flying overhead and beyond in real-time anyway.
If there is a particular aircraft I want to see, I still have to wait for it before I can actually see it outside as RB has already picked it up! A 5 min delay does not make a big difference to me.
I'm still trying to figure out the advantages of having real-time data on aircraft we can't even see - suggestions are welcome.
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We are still preparing a detailed answer to all of the questions on this thread.
"In my view and for what I use RB for, I don't see any point for real-time data on aircraft that are hundreds of miles away."
Go to liveatc.net, tune to any airport where RadarBox has coverage and you will see the difference. Also try the live network together with heathrowcam.net , looks amazing!
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I agree with Frank and Ian's posts. In my view and for what I use RB for, I don't see any point for real-time data on aircraft that are hundreds of miles away. My antenna can pick up transmitting aircraft that I can see flying overhead and beyond in real-time anyway.
If there is a particular aircraft I want to see, I still have to wait for it before I can actually see it outside as RB has already picked it up! A 5 min delay does not make a big difference to me.
I'm still trying to figure out the advantages of having real-time data on aircraft we can't even see - suggestions are welcome.
Easy.
1) It represents reality, not a distortion of it. Truth and accuracy is always to be preferred.
2) It makes your map behave correctly when an aircraft comes into local range or departs from it, no strange jumping of the aircraft position.
3) If you happened to be listening to the ATC audio from an airport abroad, it then matches up with what you see on the screen.
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I agree with Frank and Ian's posts. In my view and for what I use RB for, I don't see any point for real-time data on aircraft that are hundreds of miles away. My antenna can pick up transmitting aircraft that I can see flying overhead and beyond in real-time anyway.
If there is a particular aircraft I want to see, I still have to wait for it before I can actually see it outside as RB has already picked it up! A 5 min delay does not make a big difference to me.
I'm still trying to figure out the advantages of having real-time data on aircraft we can't even see - suggestions are welcome.
Easy.
1) It represents reality, not a distortion of it. Truth and accuracy is always to be preferred.
2) It makes your map behave correctly when an aircraft comes into local range or departs from it, no strange jumping of the aircraft position.
3) If you happened to be listening to the ATC audio from an airport abroad, it then matches up with what you see on the screen.
I remember doing a selling course many years ago where the difference between features, advantages and benefits was explained.
What you have just described are features - whether they represent advantages/benefits is purely in the eye of the beholder, and clearly e777 doesn't think so, although many others would.
Horses for courses.
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To keep topics organized, please continue the discussion on the thread below:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=3494.new#new