AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: kdt1 on April 09, 2009, 06:34:09 PM
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Ok guys what is the proper way to up date the database explorer
entries for untitled aircraft and get it to stay.
Some times it works and some times it does not. When I have to
edit the same aircraft 3 times or more it gets old.
Thanks
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Hi kdt1,
From my own expirence if it does not have a photo available do not edit it as it writes over it the next time you pick up the aircraft.
If it has a photo then the edit should stay in your database.
I am not 100% sure that it does a check for a newer photo as I have had to re edit a few. Short of turning off download photo in preferances and inputting manually (Big Pain! tried it soon got bored). I belive the photo download and populate are being seperated in the next version of software scheduled for shortly after the second coming;-)
HTH Cheers John
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Hi kdt1,
From my own expirence if it does not have a photo available do not edit it as it writes over it the next time you pick up the aircraft.
If it has a photo then the edit should stay in your database.
I am not 100% sure that it does a check for a newer photo as I have had to re edit a few. Short of turning off download photo in preferances and inputting manually (Big Pain! tried it soon got bored). I belive the photo download and populate are being seperated in the next version of software scheduled for shortly after the second coming;-)
HTH Cheers John
Thanks John
I have to give all you guys credit for putting up with
this crap for as long as you have. It just keeps getting better
and better. I hope the next release is soon.
Unbelievable!
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kdt1,
Firstly don't be rude. Let us explain:
The main Aircraft Database runs of the airliners photos and details and GAS details.
So you pick up an new aircraft:
- If its found in the online database it also looks up the aircraft image.
- If no details are found then no pic or very few details its likely no pic (hence no pic is marked in the database as way of saying recheck this aircraft detail as we have no details or limited last time)
If you don't want the database to recheck that aircraft and overwrite data then enter some text in LK field which will fool it thinking a picture is already there.
If you think it can be done in a better way we are happy to listen. No point in being rude and not putting forward your suggestion.
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If you don't want the database to recheck that aircraft and overwrite data then enter some text in LK field which will fool it thinking a picture is already there.
If you think it can be done in a better way we are happy to listen.
Hints and tips like the above would be good in the help section or the pdf manual supplied. Might save folks a lot of fustration specially for the not so computer literate like myself. (A big factor in bying Radarbox for me). A lot of posts on the forum cover the same ground over and over.
Cheers John
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I don’t think I am being rude just honest. I have thousands of untitled aircraft
and I have accepted the fact I need to manually populate them my self, I should be finish in the year 2015. Ha I just need to know the drill.
If you have a fix for the next version, than great, can’t wait. I don’t
have a better way and rely on you guys to figure it out, I am
just the consumer here.
Support In all honesty would you not be frustrated?
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Kdt
by thousands of untitled, do you mean showing with full details including CN but showing, 'Untitled' in the AC field, this is because this field is populated from airliners.net and usually indicates a white tail airliner or bizjet, as this field shows what is input by those uploading the photo that is picked up from that site.
Or do you mean entries with the '...' in the AT field. This can be changed by just deleting the ... in database explorer and manually updating with the correct code from airframes.net/GAS. If the code is relatively old, then once you delete the ..., the correct code will be picked up automatically by the airnet server next time you pick up the aircraft.
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ACW367
Just the AC (untitled) for private and corporate, the rest of the data is right on.
I get far more Mode-S here than ADS-B, So to keep it some what interesting
I would like to see who it is in stead of always seeing untitled.
The airlines data is just about perfect. I do have to populate a lot of US airline AT
though.
Thanks
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ACW367
Just the AC (untitled) for private and corporate, the rest of the data is right on.
I get far more Mode-S here than ADS-B, So to keep it some what interesting
I would like to see who it is in stead of always seeing untitled.
The airlines data is just about perfect. I do have to populate a lot of US airline AT
though.
Thanks
out of interest my airnav photos is 80mb whats yours.
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zombie1
84mb
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193 mb = 22,004 files
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193 mb = 22,004 files
are you double or single photos,i am single
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Double photos.
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ACW367
Just the AC (untitled) for private and corporate, the rest of the data is right on.
I get far more Mode-S here than ADS-B, So to keep it some what interesting
I would like to see who it is in stead of always seeing untitled.
The airlines data is just about perfect. I do have to populate a lot of US airline AT
though.
Thanks
The AC issue you have is then beyond the control of Airnet. As explained the 'Untitled' is the data you find with the photos on Airliners.net. You will see for most corporate aircraft on airliners.net the people taking the photographs usually select the airline name to be 'untitled'. A quick search of Airliners.net showed that around 197,000 show as having 'untitled' in the airline name field, as selected by the person that took the photo.
Therefore your issue is with Airliners.net and their photo uploading guidelines and not with Airnet who just take the data, as it has been input on airliners.net, through into your database.
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If you don't want the database to recheck that aircraft and overwrite data then enter some text in LK field which will fool it thinking a picture is already there.
If you think it can be done in a better way we are happy to listen.
Hints and tips like the above would be good in the help section or the pdf manual supplied. Might save folks a lot of fustration specially for the not so computer literate like myself. (A big factor in bying Radarbox for me). A lot of posts on the forum cover the same ground over and over.
Cheers John
Tried the above - and the LK field was replaced - German Mil Aircraft, identified as French.
NO Photograph available!!!
Airnav - Could there be an option in a future version to NOT download include data from Photographs into the database on Updates - ONLY from Airframes type sources please - The Photographic source frequently confuses things!!!
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Airnav..
Would it be possible to incorporate a file to be used when offline to list Mode-S ID's that require information, that could be used when next online to update the databases with details from the 'missing' aircraft?
If it was a simlpe list it could also be created externally to prompt for new information - from a search of a DB table for an airline that has ceased to trade, as an example - to update the new owners!!!
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jgrloit ,
I too tried the above - and the LK field was replaced.
ACW367,
The AC issue you have is then beyond the control of Airnet.
Not true, they just need to rethink there approach.
Great Ideas jgrloit!
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Hi all,
Just checked through todays untitled 36 in total. Of those 12 did not have a picture.
So checked Airnet and a photo was available for every one which means it had updated the the database and written a link for 2 photos in LK & LK2 but had not downloaded the picture. So I would guess there is a problem with the photo download feature.
Airnav is this your end or mine. pls advise:-)
Have now manually updated pictures to RB
Cheers John
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Support,
I am still in limbo on this populating untitled Issue, Any new thoughts.
Thanks
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AirNav Support, AirNav Development
Any new thoughts?
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Do you mean in terms of it being over written by the database or for us to try and get the company details instead of untitled?
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Pretty much all of the above!
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Sorry I think we missed out adding a picture for the aircraft as well (create a pic in the photo directory of its registration e.g G-BOAF.jpg) This and LK having information will mean it won't try and overwrite it.
Regarding getting data from Airliners we are trying to change some of the logic so that if it does find Untitled in the company name we only take the information between the brackets. E.g Untitled (ABC Company), so in theory it shows ABC Company. If there is no brackets then Untiled is used.
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Where it stands now for me and a few others this is such a huge pain in the ass.
I guess as long as your are working on a better solution, that’s all I can ask for at this point.
Thanks
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Support,
Question, your data base is not in sink with GAS, for
a lot of US aircraft.
Is the problem coming from you guys or GAS.
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The issue does rely in the syc.
As our main database is what RB connects to, if its not our database it gets the record from GAS and updates the main database.
The issue lies in whether we can work out a way that each entry in the database is the rechecked in GAS without causing GAS to crumble under the load and still keep it similiar.
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Can’t you have your data base check for missing untitled?
Or would that be to much for GAS severs to handle?
Do you think there setup is not friendly enough to just
get the basic info.
I guess you can tell this is still a daily pain and is just
turning my hobby and others into a real bummer.
Can you tell GAS to get on the same page?
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Untitled issue has nothing to do with GAS. The Untitled data is picked by via airliners.net
We can either start using only GAS data but then GAS is not brilliant outside Europe. When something is not in our main database or GAS we look up using airliners.net and thats where this Untitled issue comes in.
In theory this is what we need:
- Main Database (which RB connects too)
If Not in Main Database look up in GAS and add to Main. If not in GAS look at airliners.net and add to Database (with Untitled fix).
Every x days record is rechecked with GAS and updated to GAS record.
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So why can I get the right data from Gas and it is not on your
severs?
Support
I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
I am having a hard time getting my brain around your
answers.
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Support
Following on from your theory, how would the individual systems request, updates?
Would they be 'forced' down the links, or would users need to run some kind of populate/ update request?
For Airlines - could wrong flight ID's v Company names via Airlines table be used?
Is the Airlines table updated automatically?
Also how are the Routes i the table being updated?
Thanks.
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Here is an example:
Aircraft appears and its not in our database hence it looks up in the GAS Database and finds:
ABC123 - ABC Airline A319
That is saved to our database. (This stage is done to limit the requests send to GAS to prevent overloading)
A few months later the aircraft changes hand:
ABC123 - CAT Airlne A319.
A nice person sumbits the details to GAS and its updated on the GAS server.
--------------------------------------------------------------
This is where the issue lies and we dicussing the best way to pass the update through or to keep checking GAS for changes without overloading it.
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If the Airlines as above use Flight ID's:-
ABC123 - Flights XYZ123 Company DEF.
changes to
ABC123 -Flight ID FGH123 Company HIJ
It airline table is referenced as either a match FGH NOT equate to DEF
or as a match, if possible, FGH Equal HIJ
and NOT equal to DEF - request update (new flag reqd in Xmission) from RB server.
HowXat??
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Airlines are mostly spot on for me, Private and corporate not even close
Airnav untitled - untitled GLF4
GAS 3M - 3M GLF4
I am presently using a daily updated sqb file that has been
populated from GAS with AD and importing it into RB
for the untitled data.
That is the easiest fix for me right now, but expensive.
You guys owe me a Coffee MUG.
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KDT some other examples
A1F7E1 N226G B752 actual operator COMCO
Airliners Net: COMCO
GAS: L-3 Capital Llc
FAA Registry: L-3 Capital Llc
Therefore Airliners.net is the only one correct.
A9E708 N737WH B737 (BBJ) actual operator is Wayne Huizenga former owner of Miami dolphins.
Airliners Net: Untitled (Correct as it carries no titles or airline logo)
GAS: Bank Of America Na
FAA Registry: BANK OF AMERICA NA C/O SOUTHERN AIRCRAFT SVCS INC
In my opinion ANet remains the most accurate
A34F3A B312LA B763 Actual operator LAN Cargo or LANCO
Airliners Net: Lan Cargo or Untitled(Lanco) correctly for those that are still untitled and niot yet in the full new Lanco livery.
GAS: Bluebird Leasing Llc
FAA Registry: CERNICALO LEASING LLC
WOW Shocking Airliners net is still the most accurate.
Others I can think of N1JN actual owner Jack Nicklaus, GAS shows the financial institution N1jn-v Llc.
KDT:
How expensive are you trying to make this for airnet. It appears you want logic that goes something like:
step 1: Check Airliners net, interpret contents of Airliners net flield, If name of airline or something similar use it, if not a current airline or operator name ignore
Step 2: Check GAS, interpret contents of GAS flield, If name of airline or something similar use it, if not a current airline or operator name ignore
Step 3: Identify nationality, find online database for that states registry somewhere on the net, interpret contents of states registry operator field using whatever format is used for that particular state of registry, If name of airline or something similar use it, if not a current airline or operator name ignore
Step 4: Undertake Google search to identify actual owner/operator. If name of airline or something similar use it.
Why are you so desparate to change the whole system for all of us from the very good one that is currently in place and try to introduce unneccesary steps into a great system that in the case of liveried aircraft identifies exactly the current operator.
Your way would remove the details of the current airline operator in many cases or the fact that it is a corporate aircraft and as such carries no airline titles (I call that untitled).
You want to replace this with data of the leasing companies and financial institutions that act as middle men in the corporate and airline world. And cost Airnet thousands to pay licence fees for just about every air website database on the web to find exactly the correct details that YOU deem to be the one you want to show for a corporate aircraft. If that is your wish then that is why Airnet thoughtfully included the manual update for you to put exactly what you want.
Regards
ACW367
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KDT The perfect example of why Airnet have it right by using Airliners net as the primary which details the livery/airline name physically carried on that aircraft. As opposed to GAS which details owner. I was desperately searching for this earlier. You are still looking for some kind of other database that details operator or livery whichever better suits your need.
AA0701 N745VJ an US airways A319 logojet in Allegheny retro livery
Airliners net: US Airways (Allegheny Airlines)
GAS and FAA Registry: Wells Fargo Bank Northwest Na Trustee
;-)
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AC:
I just want a name instead of untitled very simple.
Untitled does nothing for me,
Good reply, some times less is more, Thanks
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One Query on this for the FAA origin - how do they handle reregistrations and Reuse of existing registrations as mentioned in previous messages?
While the registration is unique in the world this source seems valid.
Where the registration is NOT unique, ie purely numberic registrations - normally Military this source seems to generate errors.
In these cases the GAS type source is more correct as they use the ModeS as the key and that is unique worldwide.
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One Query on this for the FAA origin - how do they handle reregistrations and Reuse of existing registrations as mentioned in previous messages?
It depends on who you mean by "they". If you mean the FAA, then they simply cancel a registration mark from one aircraft and it becomes available for re-use immediately on any other aircraft. OTOH, if you mean how do AirNav (and Kinetic) handle this in their databases, the answer is that they aren't designed to cope with this situation.
While the registration is unique in the world this source seems valid.
Where the registration is NOT unique, ie purely numberic registrations - normally Military this source seems to generate errors.
In these cases the GAS type source is more correct as they use the ModeS as the key and that is unique worldwide.
The Mode S code (i.e. the ICAO 24-bit address) is only unique at a given point in time. As above, for those countries that tie addresses algorithmically to registrations, a code will be re-used when a registration is re-used.
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The Query ref FAA reuse was also about how do Airliners.net handle the reuse of registrations - IF that is to be seen as a primary data source for Operator and Aircraft Information. Do they scrap ALL references to the previous aircraft, or are they retained, to possibly compromise that source af data?
Ref Duplicate registrations - Military - I would like the Mode-S to still be used as the ONLY data key, and the Photographic source to be ignored as GAF 5106 a C160D is often updated to a French Mirage!!!! We know that this ONLY happend with Military Numberic registrations - so different update rules need to apply!
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The Query ref FAA reuse was also about how do Airliners.net handle the reuse of registrations - IF that is to be seen as a primary data source for Operator and Aircraft Information. Do they scrap ALL references to the previous aircraft, or are they retained, to possibly compromise that source af data?
That's easy to answer - airliners.net doesn't care how many aircraft a registration has bee (re-)used on. If you do a registration search (or if RadarBox does one) on airliners.net it will find any aircraft that has used that reg.
For example www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N600J will find 7 photos of N600J: two are the Gulfstream and 5 are the BAe125 (none, alas, of the JetStars).
Ref Duplicate registrations - Military - I would like the Mode-S to still be used as the ONLY data key, and the Photographic source to be ignored as GAF 5106 a C160D is often updated to a French Mirage!!!! We know that this ONLY happend with Military Numberic registrations - so different update rules need to apply!
If that's really what RadarBox does - translates the Mode S code into a serial and then goes and updates the database based on whatever aircraft is/are found on airliners.net with that serial - then I agree, it's just plain stupid. But I don't see why it would need to do that if the server is linked to GAS and it can simply do a lookup on the Mode S code ?
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In previous messages a user has implied that Airliners.net is the more correct data source - as it gives Operators rather than 'owners'.
This may be valid for Commercials, but is it does NOT seem a valid source for Military, due the the Registration being used as the key and the numberic duplicates DO cause problems!!!!
How "Private" aircraft are processed is still a question for consideration.
Maybe AIRNAV could add an update flag for known Military Mode-S groups 'Y/N'?
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AirNav Support
[AirNav Support
AirNav Systems
Hero Member
Posts: 2020
Re: Populating Untitled
« Reply #3 on: 09 April 2009, 20:22:17 » Quote
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kdt1,
Firstly don't be rude. Let us explain:
The main Aircraft Database runs of the airliners photos and details and GAS details.
So you pick up an new aircraft:
- If its found in the online database it also looks up the aircraft image.
- If no details are found then no pic or very few details its likely no pic (hence no pic is marked in the database as way of saying recheck this aircraft detail as we have no details or limited last time)
If you don't want the database to recheck that aircraft and overwrite data then enter some text in LK field which will fool it thinking a picture is already there.
If you think it can be done in a better way we are happy to listen. No
If you don't want the database to recheck that aircraft and overwrite data then enter some text in LK field which will fool it thinking a picture is already there.
Just to let you know, this is not working as you say.
Just recently I have been filling in the LK field to stop it getting over written, done a populate this morning and it has over written the data I had inserted, with "Untitled".
Any chance of looking at this before the next release - as it drives you crazy when you are trying to keep records and makes a hell of a lot of work.
Cheers
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AirNav Support,
Some of this information from this topic. I think should be added to this FAQ page.
Where does the aircraft registration data come from?
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=2688.0
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What's needed is a flag in the NavData aircraft record which users can set to show that they have taken responsibility for editing a particular record and don't want their updates overwritten by the AirNav server, regardless of whether they have specified a photo link or not.
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I have to agree with Dave Reid on this one.
I have gathered a great deal of aircraft info - along with flight route info - in the course of monitoring ACARS on VHF. None of my data are tied to hex codes because, before I owned a RB, I had no need or knowledge of them.
I would like to be able to use my own research as the primary source of aircraft and route info for RB without getting it overwritten or corrupted by external database errors.
With my ACARS software I can select something like "do not download database updates" and it leaves my edits alone. Can we get something similar for RB2010?
73 de Dave, NF2G
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Let's organize all this discussion: is it possible for one of you to prepare a list of what you would like to be implemented in terms of databases and their accuracy so we can think about a way of developing it and including it a future upgrade?
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My suggestion is simple:
In the database NAVDATA.DB3 put a column in which we mark this field with a tag so the system does not update. Thus, the system will do the updates in the other records and marked keep the information entered manually.
Of course if we can assemble a database of all updated aircraft would be much better.
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RNAGG
Sounds a good idea, think we are all fed up with this database.
Andy
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We could share validated data with each other if we had a utility that would concatenate multiple database fragements and then allow either automatic or manual processing of duplicates.
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is it possible for one of you to prepare a list of what you would like to be implemented in terms of databases and their accuracy so we can think about a way of developing it and including it a future upgrade?
That seems a rather odd question to ask, given the amount of debate there has been about the database over the past year or more.
But, taking the question at face value, I'd suggest:
i) RadarBox ships with an accurate, consistent database representing the aircraft a user is most likely to pick up
ii) Online updates from the AirNav server supplement the above with details/photos of new/changed aircraft
iii) RadarBox respects the manual updates a user has made to his/her own database and doesn't overwrite them arbitrarily
I would have thought all of these were no-brainers - any RadarBox users disagree ?
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i) RadarBox ships with an accurate, consistent database representing the aircraft a user is most likely to pick up
I'd have though that this would be the most difficult to achieve bearing in mind all the discussion we've had regarding the database. Did anybody ever come up with a single, accurate database anywhere in the world - free or otherwise?
Maybe we need to set up our own RB user updated database much like to GAS database - but would this be any more accurate than what we have now and who would maintain it and more importantly moderate it? As we all know, time is money!
Tarbat tried with RB Google Map locations maintained by users. It worked very well until some kind person erased all the entries.
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I'd have though that this would be the most difficult to achieve bearing in mind all the discussion we've had regarding the database. Did anybody ever come up with a single, accurate database anywhere in the world - free or otherwise?
Granted, absolute accuracy is unachievable, we all know that - I'm sure most RadarBox users would be content with something which fell short of that, but was a significant improvement over the present (which, after all, is what AirNav tell us they are striving for).
Maybe we need to set up our own RB user updated database much like to GAS database - but would this be any more accurate than what we have now and who would maintain it and more importantly moderate it? As we all know, time is money!
I assume from the fact that AirNav posed the question that they are prepared to take continuing responsibility themselves for this activity.
It would be somewhat disingenuous to advertise "accurate extensive data included" if it turned out that users were expected to provide that part themselves :-)
Having said that, I'll shortly be looking for beta testers for my NavData update utility which will allow users to do precisely that, should they so wish.
(see www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=4562.msg45833#msg45833).
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Dave,
I couldn't agree more with your comments. I, along with many other RB users it would seem, am unhappy with the AN database.
I have read numerous posts of yours in the past, and it seems clear to me that not only do you have extensive technical knowledge, but also an understanding of what users want. As such, I am very interested in any plans you may have. I am more than happy to be a beta tester, please do let me know if I can assist in this regard.
ATB
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Having said that, I'll shortly be looking for beta testers for my NavData update utility which will allow users to do precisely that, should they so wish.
(see www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=4562.msg45833#msg45833).
What exactly does your program do Dave?
I mean is it more than just a front end, so a user can manually edit single database entries, one at a time?
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Is that not what database explorer does?
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There are 4 or 5 aircraft on the network just now that if you enter their hex code into Airframes or GAS, they are not found, how do you identify these?
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What exactly does your program do Dave?
I mean is it more than just a front end, so a user can manually edit single database entries, one at a time?
It has both single-record (form) and multi-record (grid) editing modes, like a rather less clunky version of DataBase Explorer, but the big difference is that it keeps an audit trail of all the edits that the user makes so that, should the AirNav server overwrite your painstaking updates with old or incorrect data, it can detect and rectify that.
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Runway 31
Try the Mode S group on Yahoo. You have to sign up but it is a good site for tie ups.
Steve.
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Dave.
I would be pleased to be a Beta tester for your Navdata update utility. I spend at least one hour every day updating info in my database with tie ups from Airframes.org and Yahoo Mode S group. I also download my own pictures for each new entry rather than use the ones from Air Nav, personnel choice.
Steve.