AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: robbieinderry on February 10, 2009, 12:47:55 AM
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i agree with a lot that has been said about the cost of Airnav account it to costly,
and with the credit crunch its not on,and i have notice we have lost a lot of users,
if we all switch off the sharing, airnav they would have to bring the price down,
planeplotter is a good alternative.
i am still free for 11 months but i have switch of my sharing,
i hope i do not annoy anybody but it has to be said.
bobby
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How do you work out that we have lost a lot of users?
You say that the AirNav Network cost is too expensive, but people will still spend money on alcohol, cigarettes, sweets, newspapers, coffee, mobile phones etc - have you ever added up how much these cost over a year! If I buy 2 cups of coffee from Starbucks in a month, then already I've spent more than the cost of my Network subscription :-)
I get much more enjoyment from my RB than I do from 2 cups of coffee - looks like the coffee may have to stop!
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Well, I'm still sharing even though my account has expired. Although I see that the number of sharers is down a bit - the maximum in the last 24 hours was 189 sharers. It does seem unfair to me though that people can download network aircraft but can still turn off sharing.
I do hope we all keep sharing. Surely, if we want Airnav to develop Radarbox further, they'll need a steady income stream to fund the development. Or don't we want v2.1?
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Well I am still annoyed about the fact that I have been sharing 24 7 thinking that I was getting credit. As I said last week I do feel mean about not sharing, I am now sharing 24 7 on Planeplotter.
Stuart
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Ok lets explain a few things before the minority (yes they are a minority) speak beyond the majority.
1.) Since the Network Subscriptions have started in Septemeber this year the amount of customers who have been renewing has passed our expectations. Our expectations were set lower as few people in this forum who are commenting now predicted no one would buy etc.. Well infact thats not been the case and people are still sharing etc... So we are not worried by the threat of a decline of sharers or customers using the network.
2.) The cost of the network was brough down considerbly, we listened to customers and we wiped off more than 50% of the price which is massive. How many other companies would do this? The price now per year is around £50 which is very little per day. Stuart I assume the only way you will be happy is if its free and thats not going to happen as there is large cost assiocated with having servers to cope with the load.
3.) Planeplotter gets mentioned a lot, and yes you can compare the techincal aspects and say guys can you do this, add this etc.. but when it comes to cost you cannot compare the two. Why? :
Is Planeplotter a proper company (would you get a refund through proper measures and get charged properly etc.), does it have assiocations with the (FAA, CAA etc..).. Planeplotter in that case can loose its network very quickly if the authorities clamp down. There is less risk with us.
To end it off, this is a simple case of the customer wanting everything and more for free. That sounds good for the customers but its not feasible and we would not be around too much longer if thats way things head.
These posts as mentioned above are more of case to try and pressure us to change, I am sorry folks but its handfull here against hundreds who have renewed and emailed us to say great work etc..
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To end it off, this is a simple case of the customer wanting everything and more for free. That sounds good for the customers but its not feasible and we would not be around too much longer if thats way things head.
I would be happier with an alternative to the annual subscription. For 98% of the time, I don't want network access. I'd be happier if I could "pay-per-view", and just pay for a days use, for example. It's the "all or nothing" approach that has stopped me renewing my subscription. £50 is a lot of money to pay out in one go when you're on a fixed pension and interest rates approach 0% :(
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Thats fair enough, we will look into that again regarding a monthly fee.
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Hi Airnav, you have me wrong; I think your product is very good. I do understand that your development of the software and servers all come at a cost. It was just a shock to find out that I was not getting credit for sharing.
stuart
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A Monthly fee sounds like a good idea; on another thought how long is the warranty on the Radarbox for.
Thanks
Stuart
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Ok lets explain a few things before the minority (yes they are a minority) speak beyond the majority.
1.) Since the Network Subscriptions have started in Septemeber this year the amount of customers who have been renewing has passed our expectations. Our expectations were set lower as few people in this forum who are commenting now predicted no one would buy etc.. Well infact thats not been the case and people are still sharing etc... So we are not worried by the threat of a decline of sharers or customers using the network.
passed our expectations thats a great statement.what does that mean your going to lower your profit.??
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on another thought how long is the warranty on the Radarbox for.
Two years. See the warranty thread - http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1648.msg12928#msg12928
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I would be happier with an alternative to the annual subscription. For 98% of the time, I don't want network access. I'd be happier if I could "pay-per-view", and just pay for a days use, for example. It's the "all or nothing" approach that has stopped me renewing my subscription. £50 is a lot of money to pay out in one go when you're on a fixed pension and interest rates approach 0% :(
Boy oh boy, you can say that again Tarbat. My monthly investment income return has dropped by 2/3 in three months!! Suddenly even £50 needs serious consideration.
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Warranty is 2 years, we are looking into the monthly cost seriously but please note to be the monthly cost will be slightly more than an annual subscription if we choose to add it.
robbieinderry not sure whether you mean that in a bad way or a good way. Whatever way we won't discuss bussiness isues like that. Also as the credit crunch hits individuals it also hits companies, please bear that in mind as well.
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Surely, if we want Airnav to develop Radarbox further, they'll need a steady income stream to fund the development. Or don't we want v2.1?
Non sequitur that tarbat. R & D isn't funded by some hypothetical, if & maybe, come and go revenue stream. R&D is your baseline investment into your product, and the costs are re-couped by the sales.
When we pay £400 for RB we aren't paying for the hardware - if the box itself costs £20 I'd be surprised. We're paying for the software which Airnav developed and, at the same time, funding future research.
Bit like Microsoft - when you buy Windows XP, it's a helluva lot to pay for a little disc. It's what's on it you pay for.
The Network running costs may well be funded by £50 per month contributions - I don't know - but that cash flow, nice as it is, won't be paying the real product development costs.
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Thanks Tarbat I just wanted to check. That’s why I think paying monthly would be better; the worse case would be paying for a year then having your Radarbox break.
Stuart
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The point I was attempting to make in the previous, closed, posts was that the 2009 software was available after the price change - but it seems as though the details had not been passed within AirNav, to update any notices there.
Please ensure that the notice referencing the credit is removed from 2.1
Thanks.
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Can we get this clear. AFAIK, Airnav have never advertised the network as having 30 mins free use for every hour of sharing. The monthly/annual subscription pricing model has been in place for at least a year, all the way back to v1.3. You only see the 30 minute free usage message when you turn sharing off. Everyone should have known the pricing model when they bought their Radarbox.
Sure, the message needs removing, but there's far more important things that need fixing in the software than this message in my opinion.
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Its funny that only one person has emailed saying I thought I was entitled to free time. The message only appears as Tarbat says if you untick sharing which very few people do.
The only time people start bringing this up is when it was mentioned on the forum and then a few customers though this is a brilliant way not to pay. I am sorry guys but that message in the software was a mistake and its not mentioned anywhere else and nobody has got a free time so no point in bringing it up again and again.
The message will be removed in the next version.
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To be fair, the main reason users aren't turning off Sharing, is because they're forced to do it EVERY time they start RadarBox should they choose NOT to share - which is a pain in the backside.
It's also, I think, disingenuous to have "Sharing On" hardwired into every system when you intend charging others for the data that other users who opt not to share (or partake in the network) are providing free.
This has been aired before in threads about Preferences. I, and others at the time considered that a preference should be able to be set by individual users, and retained by the software for the next startup.
It should be a matter of choice.
DC
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To be fair, the main reason users aren't turning off Sharing, is because they're forced to do it EVERY time they start RadarBox should they choose NOT to share - which is a pain in the backside.
I don't think that's the main reason users aren't turning off Sharing. If users really feel that strongly about the sharing issue, then they will make the effort of the three mouse clicks that are required. The main reason that users are not turning off Sharing, is because they are quite happy to share their data - just as I am, even when I don't have Network data selected.
You are quite right, it is a matter of choice :-)
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It won't happen, with the exception of customers who don't want to share because of legal reasons or cos they are not paying for the network the others have no reason not too (ok a few say it runs quicker in earlier versions). We could have easily coded it so it hard sharing all the time regardless, at least we have given the option.
We were more concerened as well that normal customers who don't know the ins and outs picking up random forum posts and turning it off. Some of the users on this forum may be suprised to hear a few posts here and there are picked up by begginers who email support following various items which have no relevance to there issue.
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Can I just point out that there is a bit of a reference to a sharing credit on the Tools...Network Account Information screen, where it shows "Minites Credited" and "Minutes Available".
Perhaps AirNav ought to remove that, too.
Rod
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hi
i can,t understand people some time,this is the first message i have posted since joining,i think this is more to do with a reality check... when i started spotting many years ago you where lucky to get any advanced information about anything and it was the chosen few with there groups that kept it that way now we have a great system that crosses the world supplying amazing information for people like me who are obsessed with avation.I was one of the first people with sbs system and have enjoyed it a great deal, rb in my opinon is a perfect system that need a few tweeks and is easy to use, unlike sbs where you have to be a computer freak to update it.hears my point for 50 quid its the best bargin in town and and i will always.........yes always share my info not just with rb but as well sitting outside a cold airfeild fence,, if that money is to much for you stop subscribing thats fine, but stop trying to infulence people like me who want to share their hobby, totally suport the airnav team on this subject... before some people start to warm up remember this is my opinion
regards dave-c
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Well said Dave C - I'm with you!
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dave-c
Could not agree more, I cannot believe people are trying to badger Air Nav to drop the price even lower. I mean, its less than £1 per week, 15 p per day, what can you get for that these days , nowt !!.
I love the network, and even if i didnt use it I would still share data.
It seems to me that most of the people having a problem with this live in the UK , so not a problem if they didnt share ,as UK is covered comprehensively already by people who already share.
To the rest of you guys out there carry on sharing so we can enjoy our hobby and using this great piece of kit.
Regards
Phil
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Welcome to the forum, Dave C, and hear hear!
I agree - if I couldn't or didn't want to afford the network subscription, I wouldn't turn off sharing unless my internet connection charged me for doing it. I think it's rather sad to turn it off as a matter of principle.
Rod
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My subscription lapsed in the middle of January and I have not yet renewed, mostly because of job security at the moment, however I have continued to share by data when ever I use RB, it is not in my interest stop sharing the information just because I am not using the network data and certainly not in the spirit of our hobby. £50 for a years subscription is not a lot of money for the joy that we get from using the system, i for one will be paying my subscription by the end of the week as I miss the use of the network. My only gripe and it's only a small one is that Airnav could have emailed me to let me know that my subscription had lapsed rather than finding out when i logged in and that perhaps they could have extended the subscription by a couple of days because of the network outage recently. So lets enjoy another year of a wonderful hobby.
Steve
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Could not agree more, I cannot believe people are trying to badger Air Nav to drop the price even lower. I mean, its less than £1 per week, 15 p per day, what can you get for that these days , nowt !!.
Well I for one am not badgering Airnav to drop the price. If you use the network regularly, then it's good value for money. I'd happily pay the 15p per day, on the occasional day that I want network access. It's paying £50 for a whole year, when I know I won't use it for 98% of the time, that I have a problem with.
If I can't pay per day/week, then I'll use airnavlive.com and Planeplotter for the odd occasion that I need extended range.
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Agree with Tarbat - my RB is not on every day and even then I do not use the network traffic much as I am only really interested in the aircraft I am likely to see rather than a dot on a screen.
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Well said and put. I see a monthly sub suggested and you are having a look at that. That appears a good idea. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. You will see i am only a "month old" member.
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You will see i am only a "month old" member.
Blimey, RB users are getting younger. :o))
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Thanks what a clanger (71 years old) ah well its called command of the english language
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Thanks what a clanger (71 years old) ah well its called command of the english language
Never mind CQ. You're just a year older than me :-)
73
Tom
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Could not agree more, I cannot believe people are trying to badger Air Nav to drop the price even lower. I mean, its less than £1 per week, 15 p per day, what can you get for that these days , nowt !!.
Well I for one am not badgering Airnav to drop the price. If you use the network regularly, then it's good value for money. I'd happily pay the 15p per day, on the occasional day that I want network access. It's paying £50 for a whole year, when I know I won't use it for 98% of the time, that I have a problem with.
If I can't pay per day/week, then I'll use airnavlive.com and Planeplotter for the odd occasion that I need extended range.
So actually Tarbat, a sort of Pay As You Go approach would work for you, you add credit and then it drops when you enable the network with some minimum usage amount. Shouldn't be too hard to code that if the original intention was to have 30mins credit per hour of sharing.
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Yes, that's exactly what I'd like, but I'm not sure Airnav will want to implement that level of complexity. I'd much rather Airnav concentrate their efforts on fixing the missing Flight IDs on regional airlines such as Loganair.
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Yes, that's exactly what I'd like, but I'm not sure Airnav will want to implement that level of complexity. I'd much rather Airnav concentrate their efforts on fixing the missing Flight IDs on regional airlines such as Loganair.
Indeed, but as a medium term option it would help people whose network usage is relatively low.
As for the other issue, is this the same sort of thing that causes Flybe aircraft to all be shown as ... despite their photos and routes appearing correctly?
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No, thats a different problem. The problem I'm describing is where a lot of aircraft don't display their Flight ID, and so logos aren't displayed, route lookup can't take place, etc. Described at http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1372.0
I guess what I'm saying to Airnav is - fix the bugs before worrying about different network pricing models.
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Yes, I've alluded to that in this and another thread. Personally, I think the bugs should be fixed before charging anyone a further full year's network subscription, particularly those issues which affect the network (route drop out, etc.). Is there any possibility of this, I wonder?
DC
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I've just come to the forum and found this thread, I came here because I've noticed that whoever was sharing in Florida seems to have stopped, not seen a single flight anywhere over Florida for 2 days now, clearly users are dropping off the network.
I subscribe to Live Flight Tracker which IMHO offers far better value for money, on live flight tracker North America is lit up like a Christmas tree, on radar box network there's only a few clusters near major cities.
I understand there is a cost for running the service, but it is the users that supply the data, if the users don't supply the data anymore there will be no network, no one will pay and Radar Box loses the main advantage it has over the competition.
Personally I think the price is too high, data is provided by the goodwill of the users, using their electricity and bandwidth, its not just Airnav paying bills to keep the network up. Due to the current lack of traffic on the network I wouldn't pay for it, I would just use live flight tracker instead.
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Woodpecker:
"clearly users are dropping off the network. "
As you know we are totally transparent company. We have online, accessible to anyone, the number of users on our network. Just check the link below. Contrary to what you say the number of sharers is growing week after week and we expect to reach 500 simultaneously in 1 year.
Online H24 Network Statistics:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/radarbox/network.php
Regarding the price: 5 EUR/month is very low amount by any point of view. It l16 cents of EUR per day. Anyway for users that complained that they have to pay for an entire year and only use it a few month we have just released a new pricing solution.
Read below:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=2160.0
We will do anything we can to improve the quality of our services and to listen to users suggestions and this new network structure shows it.
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You may be growing numbers but that is no use if they are all in the major cities, take a look at Florida, there is not a single flight now (same in many other states), we like to track flights in and out of KMCO, cannot do it on radar box network now, a user or users have dropped from the network which has reduced its coverage.
Your statistic of number of users is meaningless, it needs to be a statistic of geographic coverage, this is reducing and this is the issue. I wouldn't pay 5 euro for the current geographic coverage, its a value for money issue, live flight tracker is good value for money, radar box network is not, IMHO.
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Hi again
"its a value for money issue, live flight tracker is good value for money, radar box network is not"
It depends for which purpose you are using each application. If in the US/Canada AirNav Live Flight Tracker is better (for now since ADS-B is not widely used in these area), if outside then RadarBox is much better.
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I am in the UK but we like to track flights worldwide, reading some of the posts about this in here it seems that some of the people who will not be paying will also not be sharing data any more, I think you are in a difficult position with this, some users will be happy with it, some will be alienated, if too many drop from the network in areas with limited coverage it will be worthless and will de-value the whole product.
It's analogous to a cellular network, if the geographic coverage is poor no one will use the network, in this case though you are relying on the people you are charging to build your network.
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Agreed Wood,I share my data 24/7 SW of Philadelphia USA but
when my network time runs out so will my shared data.
I have enough to keep busy anyway without network stuff so will
rely on other sources for updated info.
Mark
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Allocator, reference your cups of coffee analogy, you only buy your coffee as and when you feel like one. If you bought a year's worth at two a month in advance, and only drank half a dozen or so, you may well not be so keen to make that comparison!
DC
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I, for one, won't be sharing so frequently on the Radarbox network. I have a couple of reasons.
1. The network is of little use to me. You've only got to look at the sharers map to see why:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/3278073751_eb584fca1b_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarbat/3278073751/sizes/o/)
2. I currently have my PC turned on all day, constantly sharing to both the Radarbox and Planeplotter networks. To save money, I'll be putting the PC into standby whenever I can. So I won't be sharing then.
So, sorry to anyone that needed coverage across Scotland, although I'm sure it's only a matter of time before others in Scotland buy a Radarbox.
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hi,
i understand where Tarbat is comming from , however i am in central scotland and cover a large area of scotland, the track sysrem dictates that most of our traffic comes from the south-south east, so everything i get tracks up your way,so my point is 2-3 boxes would cover all of scotland, your point about sharers doesnt make sense.
as regards about florida, i agree about coverage but you could have 100 boxes in that are but untill they start to use adsb fully it will not have an impact at all,also i go back to the money ..........they say the scots are tight with there cash come one , i spent 40 qiud on a round of drinks in george st last night,and regards to using up pc capacity is nonsence, i had a look at plane plotter didnt like it at all i dont think there is any comparison even if it is free,i have been with airnav since the early days of acars and i think we have to show some support to these ground breaking developments that aid our hobbies
regrds davec
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davec,
Well said. I also stay in Central Scotland therefore you and I, at least, will be providing coverage over the busiest area of the country !
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hi eko1
thank you
davec
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EK01, davec. Do you cover the north and west - Orkney, Shetland, Lewis, Harris, etc. That's the area that I really need covering, to fill-in a blind-spot I have due to Knockshortie Hill. I've never seen these areas covered on the RB network.
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Hi tarbat,
i have coverage 200 miles central scotland,like today there is very little traffic north of perth due to the oceanic tracks .....track alpha is dogal , due to scotland being mostly mountains we will always have problems, but even a little coverage helps, i have a problem with the pentland hills , but its still as good as vhf- i havespent a lot of time figering out about areials, even local traffic is way down since last year, last 2 years ago i could get nearly 1400 flts a day , however its down to 4-500 on a weekday.
hope this helps
regards davec
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Hi tarbat,
until we have some one up there which is nw approaches we will have to put up with it
davec
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i have coverage 200 miles central scotland,like today there is very little traffic north of perth due to the oceanic tracks
Strange. I'm seeing a regular flow of traffic heading NNW, heading over Stornoway and beyond - on the Planeplotter network.
As you say, due to the mountains in Scotland we probably need more sharers in Scotland to adequately cover, particularly in the Highlands & Islands. It's okay on the Planeplotter network, there's people regularly sharing in Inverness and Stornoway.
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Hi Tarbat,
My coverage is just the same as that of davec. I am just using the standard twig which comes with the RB. Today seems to be particularly bad. I am looking to purchase the BS 1100 and along with 10m Westflex cable install it in the loft. Hopefully this will improve things but not sure if it will pick up Orkney, Shetland, etc. Any ideas on this .
Cheers.
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HI Tarbat,
i have5 tracks as of sbs and rb, i will not have that the tracks you are talking about as i dont use plane plotter, i wasnt aware that there was that many avation buffs up in inverness etc, just checking your jpg thats the same as i have when they passed tla enroute north regards davec