AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: tarbat on February 07, 2009, 10:53:43 AM
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So, what happens when your Airnav account gets to the end of it's one year free period? Mine expires today at 20:22pm. Do you get a reminder email or something to tell you how to pay? And will I just lose the network flights at 20:22pm, or is there any other functionality that will stop at that time?
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Hi Tarbat
I renewed mine the other day. The only prompt you get is when you try and connect to the network after your account has expired. Just went to the Order section of AirNav's site and renewed. You need your RB serial number and then pay and the re-connection is almost instant
Wayne
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Mine will run out soon, i don't think I will be renewing. I love the radarbox and I share my data 24 7 at EGNX.
I thought you got 30 mins free for every hour you share, does anyone know how this works.
Stu
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Mine will run out soon, i don't think I will be renewing. I love the radarbox and I share my data 24 7 at EGNX.
I thought you got 30 mins free for every hour you share, does anyone know how this works.
Stu
The free minutes were superseded by the significantly reduced subscription fees - it just hasn't been removed in the software window.
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I'm in the same position. I can't justify the cost of £48, since I rarely use the network. Sure, I'll miss it on the odd occasion, but I'll get by with AirNavLive.com when I need to track a flight overseas.
It's a shame you can't just buy 1 months access, or just the occasional day :( So, no more aircraft sharing from my northern outpost in the Highlands of Scotland.
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I wonder if the renewal will also lock you out of the forum - in which case Tarbet, I think that AIRNAV and it's userbase may miss you more than you miss them!!!
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I wonder if the renewal will also lock you out of the forum - in which case Tarbet, I think that AIRNAV and it's userbase may miss you more than you miss them!!!
Why should it lock you out of the forum? You can be on the forum without even owning a RadarBox, so that isn't going to happen!
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I thought that you were automatically logged on to the sharing part of the network each time you started RadarBox - the only way of stopping that was by going into Options each time at start up, and unchecking the relevant box.
I thought that the bit you pay for was only the reception of networked traffic.
Or have I got it wrong?
Either way, I doubt that I'll be renewing, chiefly because parts of the networked system haven't worked properly during the year that I've had RadarBox. Despite the various bugs being logged, we're still waiting for fixes to be implemented (particularly concerning routes not showing on the transition between live and networked traffic), and I don't consider it fair to be expected to pay for a service which is only partially functional. Well, that's my take on it, anyway.
DC
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I thought that you were automatically logged on to the sharing part of the network each time you started RadarBox - the only way of stopping that was by going into Options each time at start up, and unchecking the relevant box.
I thought that the bit you pay for was only the reception of networked traffic.
Or have I got it wrong?
DC
You are correct.
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The dilemma I have is that if there were Radarbox users NORTH of me, I'd be more tempted to pay for the network. So, how will I know, in the future, if any new Radarboxes are located to the north of me - in Orkney, Shetland, Lewis, etc.
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Surely, Tarbat, you'll still have access to the AirNav User map, our own user map, and the forum - I'm sure you'll be able to keep up ;-)
Rod
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The dilemma I have is that if there were Radarbox users NORTH of me, I'd be more tempted to pay for the network. So, how will I know, in the future, if any new Radarboxes are located to the north of me - in Orkney, Shetland, Lewis, etc.
Can you get an Internet connection - especially Broadband - that far north?
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Although I've not yet registered and started using the network, it seems to me that AirNav are going to have to significantly reduce (to a nominal amount each year - say £10) the subscription fee, if they want RB users to continue support and contribute their data to the system. If an RB user is uploading info., they should be allowed to access and download the same amount of data without charge. Especially so, if info/data is going to be sold on to non-contributors who don't even own RBs.
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Yes, but the Airnav network map just shows the location of the Radarbox users ISP. There aren't many ISPs in Orkney, Shetland, etc.!!!!
Yes, I'll check the user map, but so far, I'm the most northern location. A lot of Radarbox users don't put their location on our user map.
Can you get an Internet connection - especially Broadband - that far north?
Scotland is better served than England by broadband since our government funded broadband for remote areas - see http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/People/BroadbandforScotland
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Hi Allocator, that is bad news about not getting 30 mins free for every hour of sharing, from today I will not be sharing any more, I will use planeplotter to get the network trafic when my account runs out.
stu
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I just want to say that I LOVE the network - it's what sold me on the RB.
Sure, we have large chunks of the planet not covered, sure, there are some outages and bugs, but I still think the whole concept is wonderful, and I really enjoy touring the globe watching police helicopters in Germany, A380's in OZ, and Fointier Airbuses buzzing around Denver. And I don't give a tinker's cuss about the 5-minute delay.
All for about ONE EURO per WEEK - I don't think that's expensive.
Rod
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I thought that you were automatically logged on to the sharing part of the network each time you started RadarBox - the only way of stopping that was by going into Options each time at start up, and unchecking the relevant box.
That is certainly what happens and there doesn't appear to be any way of saving the option not to share data.
Like others, I thought we got 30 minutes download free for every hour we uploaded which is fair enough.
My subscription is a long way from renewal, but if I had to pay, I think I'd just switch to using planeplotter as my sole network solution especially as its a lot more seamless than the RB solution (ie. no 5 minute delay and leaping planes!) and already gives better coverage in my area.
The downside of course is that I would be reluctant to continue to share my data with the RB network as I wouild be getting nothing back in return. If many of us do this, I can see the RB network suffering.
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Given the "legal" questions raised on the other forum about the selling of ADS/B data, I may also stop sharing. I just can't see what's in it for me to continue sharing.
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Hi Allocator, that is bad news about not getting 30 mins free for every hour of sharing, from today I will not be sharing any more, I will use planeplotter to get the network trafic when my account runs out.
stu
Isn't that a bit mean - sharing the data benefits all the RB users on the network. Your choice though ;-)
AirNav significantly reduced the network cost to the 5 Euro per month price, although I can't remember what it was originally. As far as I'm concerned, 5 Euro's a month is cheap entertainment for me as I use the Network all the time. I pay something like GBP 22 per month for my Sky TV package and I think that I spend more time watching RadarBox :-) My Broadband package costs GBP 24 per month, then there's the mobile phone package etc - so I consider the 5 Euro charge pretty good!
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As I said I think alot of people will stop sharing like me and use Planeplotter, unless Airnav go back to giving 30 mins for each hour.
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Given the "legal" questions raised on the other forum about the selling of ADS/B data, I may also stop sharing. I just can't see what's in it for me to continue sharing.
So, we're comparing the legality of sharing live data via PP for free, against the legality of sharing delayed Network data - interesting.
I understand that the selling of Network data - and it doesn't all come from our boxes as I understand - is subsidising the lower cost of the subscription. Not selling the data and increasing the subscription cost would have the same result - less people sharing. I don't know what to suggest really. No subscription charge for the Network and then be happy for AirNav to sell the data on?
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As far as I'm concerned, 5 Euro's a month is cheap entertainment for me as I use the Network all the time.
If you're using the network all the time, then it may be good value. My interest is in traffic over the south of England, Wales, Ireland, but most of all in transatlantic movements (military principally) but there isn't ever going to be many permanent/regular RB contributors between me and the US/Canada, they'd be getting rather damp methinks.
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My view...
I would only renew the network if I had full access to the shared data that I received.
As it is I don't use the RB network data at all and get my network data from other sources.
I still upload 24/7 via RB to both RB network and PlanePlotter network but I am keeping a keen eye on the other alternatives that are springing up at the moment as things appear to be going a bit one way at the moment.
IMHO - RB users contribute a hell of lot to the network data but all we have free access to is the data we upload and even that very shortly is going to have a delay put on it if we want to use it outside of RB (port 30003).
Thats why I personally prefer the PlanePlotter network model as I see it being a little fairer. We need something like FreeNet, we buy the box and get a limited network service for FREE with paying options to increase coverage if required.
Don't get me wrong I think RB is fantastic and AirNav do a great job, I just think the network model could be a little fairer especially to the full time contributers to their network.
A bit off subject but can anyone point me at the legal stuff that says any shared network data has to be delayed by 5 minutes which keeps being referred to everywhere.
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I don't think it's mean choosing not to share your data freely for other users who have to pay for that data. If you opt not to continue using the network, then why should you freely make that data available to anyone else? I'd happily sell it, though, as essentially that's what AirNav are doing to paying network users!
Anyway, there is a principle at stake, and I'm not happy being a cash cow for something which isn't 100%
DC
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For me it really just comes down to this. Can I justify £48 when I don't get much benefit from the Radarbox network. There's no other Radarboxes sharing to the north of me, which is the one area where my coverage is restricted (by hills). If there were more Radarboxes located near me, then the network would be of more use.
£48 is a lot of money when prices are rising, pension payments are dropping, and interest rates are approaching 0%.
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I feel very bad about not sharing, I will keep looking at what airnav do.
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When I bought my RB in April last year the concept was to get credit time if you share your data.
When has this been changed ? I'm not sure I have been informed by Airnav.
I'm a big fan of the RB but also a customer !
Hosch
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I understand that the selling of Network data - and it doesn't all come from our boxes as I understand - is subsidising the lower cost of the subscription.
As a matter of interest, can we access this 'other' data, or is that purely for commercial use?
No subscription charge for the Network and then be happy for AirNav to sell the data on?
If there was just a nominal registration fee, then personally, I'd have no problem being allowed to download as much data as I've uploaded, with data being sold on to subsidise the network. If you're not contributing, why should you be able to parasitise others' contributions. Currently, my input would be virtually nil, and until I've got my external antennas rigged (ordered yesterday from www.radioworld.co.uk at a cost of just under £400 - only one for RB use tho') and I'm not registering/using the network, although I'd have had a lot more RB fun in the meantime!
Today's a prime example, too cold and windy outside to do anything useful, but standard twig, blows back off the roof and hammers the window, quicker than I can put it up, so no RB today for me............
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When I bought my RB in April last year the concept was to get credit time if you share your data.
When has this been changed ? I'm not sure I have been informed by Airnav.
I'm a big fan of the RB but also a customer !
Hosch
That is my point and why I am not sharing at the moment because I too thought I was earning time when I was sharing. I must admit I am not very happy and thats why sharing is off.
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I doubt if I will re-register for the network when my time runs out. Two reasons; I have PlanePlotter which has far more sharers and is free and the fact that our shared info is used for other products by Airnav.
Tom
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The AirNav post in Aug 2007 gave what I think was the original Network cost:
The subscription to the network (not the whole software itself) is $240 per year. The first year is free. Not taking a subscription will mean not getting network flights nothing else is affected.
This would have been USD 20 per month which at current exchange rates is 15.47 Euro, so the 5 Euro per month represents quite a saving on the original cost.
I can't find the post where AirNav said that the Network data in return for sharing had been cancelled due to the reduction in the subscription cost. It's there somewhere, but it was posted a long time ago.
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As a matter of interest, can we access this 'other' data, or is that purely for commercial use?
I presume that all the RB data goes in the "pot", wherever it comes from, so we all have access to it.
Other AirNav Products like AirNav Live Flight Tracker uses FAA data for USA traffic and I'd guess that this comes at a cost?
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I can understand that for many users the Radarbox network is seen as good value for money. For me, its just not worth the cost or hastle. I probably use the network for less than an hour each month, yet I have to pay the same as someone using it 24x7.
And with it turned on, every 30 seconds my internet connection has all it's limited bandwidth used up. If I left the network turned on for too long, my limited bandwidth will soon be consumed. Not everyone has a high bandwidth internet connection!!!
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Found it - 13 Oct 2008, although I can't be sure that this was the first mention.
The question was:
As I recall, if we share flight data we receive free network download usage, on a 1 hour given 30 mins given back basis. ( as per screenshot) I have been sharing data for 12 months where possible on a more often than not 24/7 basis.
And the answer from AirNav:
Sorry to break the news to you but that was never done. We made it clear from the start the subscription after the 1st year would cost.
Unfortunately due to the fact we heavily cut the price of the network there is no free network via sharing.
We will change that information, which has been left behind incorrectly.
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Well Planeplotter it is
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And with it turned on, every 30 seconds my internet connection has all it's limited bandwidth used up. If I left the network turned on for too long, my limited bandwidth will soon be consumed. Not everyone has a high bandwidth internet connection!!!
When I'm using my 3G Mobile Broadband down near Heathrow - limited to 3Gb per month (that's upload and download) - I don't always have Network selected as there is more than enough traffic to see live. However, I always leave sharing on and I haven't really seen much of a hit from having the sharing upload selected on. I don't know the exact data upload, but it can't be much.
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There was this back in October:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1547.0
At £120 per year for the pleasure of using the network, I suspect, would result in few if any takers - the reduction obviously made it a little more palatable.
As it is, £48 per annum x however many RadarBoxes are out there, potentially subscribing to the network costs is probably a nice little earner on the back of other business.
I'm not completely in disagreement with a nominal fee of, say, £10 to cover costs, but that would be in return for a 100% fully functional product. And if there were ongoing problems, I would expect concessions.
As it is, I'll not renew for now, and wait to see what (if anything) transpires. I won't hold my breath...
DC
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However, I always leave sharing on and I haven't really seen much of a hit from having the sharing upload selected on. I don't know the exact data upload, but it can't be much.
No, its the downloading of >1,000 aircraft every 30 seconds that consumes my bandwidth. My upload is typically only a couple of aircraft, so not a problem with bandwidth.
If only it could just download the aircraft within range of my map - but Airnav have already said that they won't develop that functionality.
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Today's a prime example, too cold and windy outside to do anything useful, but standard twig, blows back off the roof and hammers the window, quicker than I can put it up, so no RB today for me............
Had a brainwave (for me, at least, just now), stick an old Peugeot 306/405 brake disc (several kilos in weight, so it won't blow off..........hopefully..........) out of the window, onto flat roof above, stick the twig onto that - I'm now enjoying live data - the brake disc seems to be as good a ground plane as the supplied disc, 43 a/c in 45 minutes.
This is certainly developing into a red hot thread!
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I consider that the Network access consists of two parts, and should really be seperated.
1. Networked traffic from RB's and other sources
2. Photographs and Information data - again I would like to see this split within the RB so that I can obtain Aircraft data updates, without the Photographs.
There should be seperate costs for each of these, as Photographs can incurr a royalty payment and are not needed for the working of the RB, and the aircraft and flight information.
I use the RB network'd data rather sparingly, but have the upload set to SHARE.
I would like to have the Aircraft update ONLY, at a small cost, and A lower Network load - I am on Radio Broadband, with the 3Gb a month limit.
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Do remember that the reception of data and photos of aircraft in MyFlights doesn't depend on a network subscription - that's free.
Rod
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While Myflights data is free, you shouyld need network access for and photographs that are currently not on your PC.
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If only it could just download the aircraft within range of my map - but Airnav have already said that they won't develop that functionality.
Oh like PlanePlotter does you mean, now you can see why a number of users are swapping over to the PP network when it comes to renewal time.
Maybe things will change now that the first real big batch of renewals are coming due, I am sure Airnav are keeping a close eye on their network subscription income and network upload/coverage figures.
We the RB users are after all their suppliers as well as their customers ;o)
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Oh like PlanePlotter does you mean, now you can see why a number of users are swapping over to the PP network when it comes to renewal time.
Exactly like Planeplotter, which is why I suggested this feature in the first place - http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=507.0
From sharer pQ
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Interesting posts from our users.
Our position is, as usual, very simple and transparent: in an utopic world everything would be free. Anyway it is simply impossible to keep it like that, with the quality standards we want and have been delivering.
The network feature has many associated costs and the only way to keep the price it has now it to try to find other ways to generate income the data. The cost is, has mentioned by some users, low (5 EUR per month) and this is the way we found to give users access to something no one has ever seen before we released it: a worldwide ADS-B based flight position network.
Unlike our competition we don´t lie to our customers: we have developed this unique network feature, it works H24 and is growing week after week. We said we had to charge for this feature and would do our best to keep it as cheap as possible. We did it.
AirNav RadarBox 2009 is a very sophisticated and totally integrated software. All in one. No need for one add-on to log aircraft msgs, other to collect aircraft data, another to generate alerts and another one to see network flights.
We have quality and we will continue to work nonstop to add more features.
All we want is to keep our customers happy and we will continue to work to achieve their needs/suggestions.
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Good reply Airnav Dev. I accept that many will find the network excellent value for money.
Its just a pity that there's no way of making the cost relative to the use. I simply can't get value from it using it for just a couple of hours per month, whereas others using it 24x7 pay the same amount.
I'm not complaining. Just thinking that you could probably retain network users like me by offering alternatives to a flat-fee annual subscription. At least I can continue to use Planeplotter.
We have quality and we will continue to work nonstop to add more features.
All we want is to keep our customers happy and we will continue to work to achieve their needs/suggestions.
Hope that includes getting Flight IDs for all aircraft, including Loganair, Flybe, etc. Thats way more important to me than the network!!
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Well, that's it. 9pm and network access has gone :( Someone let me know if any Radarboxes get sold to anyone in Orkney, Shetland, or the Western Isles, because I've got no way of seeing if they ever appear on the network now!!!
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Can't spot any yet, Tarbat, but I'll keep a lookout for you :-)
Rod
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This pictures shows so clearly why I'll stick with Planeplotter. I could never get this coverage with the Radarbox network in my part of the country.
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I wonder why not? I can see stuff almost down to ground level at Edinburgh and Newcastle on a quiet Sunday morning using the Network.
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Well, I've got no way of comparing now, but yesterday when I was testing out the Radarbox network before losing it, I was getting nothing in the central belt.
You've got me wondering now whether there has always been something wrong with my connection to the Radarbox network........
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I've tried to capture these 2 shots at more or less the same time - only about 30 seconds between the two. PP at the top and RB at the bottom. RB will be 5 minutes delayed of course.
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Surprised that you can't see the aircraft I'm sharing on the RB network - BMA751 and COA97 for example. I'm really wondering whether there's a problem with my connection to the RB network now. Maybe a firewall problem?
Does RB definately still upload aircraft to the RB network when your sub expires?
Here's what's on my RB map - http://www.tarbat.gofreeserve.com/radarbox.htm
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If you are PQ, then I can see your ac on PP. I've also got IS, PW showing too.
KT
Here's another shot of your area, these must be your RB shared tracks?
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Okay, thanks. Yes, looks like my sharing on the RB network is working okay.
Now I've got to decide whether to continue sharing on the RB network as well as the PP network. Unfortunately, sharing networks are a bit like religions. The more people that join your religion (network), the better it is for everyone in that religion (network).
Anyway, at least today the skies are busy once again.
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This is a Q. for Tarbat.
After reading the above posts i was curious to see just what the volume of traffic is like around your part of the world,and am happy to report that i don`t think i`ve seen so many a/c over and off the n/w of the country,plus with the users in N Ireland a/c way out into the N Atlantic.
Regards Terry.
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Tarbat,
Just wondering if your RB is having problems with coverage of the Central Belt. I stay in this area and there is plenty traffic in this area on a daily basis. Lots of transatlantic flights will track over Newcastle and then head for Glasgow before heading west. This , in addition, to the local Glasgow, Edinburgh and Prestwick flights. As Allocator says there is usually plenty happening in this area.
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Interesting thread.
Network is a facility based on symbiotic relationships between individual participating users and Airnav, the latter in the capacity of enabler.
Basically if two RB users wish share data with each other, Airnav acts as facilitator and charges for the service.
Just how much that service is worth, either to the individual user or to Airnav itself, will ultimately be established in the old-fashioned way - market forces.
If you don't want the information in the first place, you're certainly not going to pay for it and you will probably untick your share flight data box on principle.
If on the other hand you particularly want the service, you will know what you are prepared to pay, taking into consideration alternative means available.
If however you just see Network as a bit of an extra and not an essential part of RB, then I suspect you will only be happy with a very "nominal" fee.
Is £50 up front nominal? Hmmm........
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Well, I didn't normally use the network most of the time. However, when making the decision yesterday on whether to pay for another year, I did check the RB network for a couple of hours. There was practically nothing in the central belt, other than the high-level transatlantic aircraft that I can receive on my own hardware anyway.
For the RB network to be worthwhile to me, I need RB users north of me covering Orkney, Shetland, and in particular the Western Isles. I tend to lose coverage over Lewis, Harris, etc., and would really like to see aircraft tracking west of the Western Isles.
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Exactly tarbat. Unless you particularly want to see aircraft at a range in excess of say 100nm or you have a blind spots, Network is not a necessity.
That makes the economic viabilty of the system "fragile" in as much as a withdrawal of subscribers in any numbers would lead to its immediate collapse - nobody is going to pay anything for non-existent information - much the position you find yourself in.
The big unknown factor in the debate is just how much the cash flow means to Airnav.
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I have just enabled the Network processing, for the first time without having share data ON.
Even the 2009 software still lists the 30 minutes free access for 1 hour shared data!!!!
It looks as though different parts of AirNav were expecting different rules!!!!
AirNav - Consistency Please.
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No, just an old message left in the software - this doesn't appear just because you have enabled the Network sharing.
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Appears when Network Processing enables with Network sharing turned OFF!!!
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It is true see screenshot attachment, I have never tried this scenario having always shared 24/7 but the message is misleading. No doubt it will be fixed in version 2.1 !!!
Maybe I will just stay on version 2.0 and claim my hours :o)
... and keep the access to my live data.
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That message existed because we initially planned to limit the usage to non-professional customers (instead of 24 hours per day, we - like our competition for AirNav Live Flight Tracker - would limit usage to 10 hours per day).
We then decided to allow users to have access to the network to 24 hours / day.
So that message is totally obsolete and will be removed on future versions.