AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: pilot_ngb on December 09, 2008, 03:16:05 PM
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hello
I came from the 'other side' impressed with the 'everything in one package' option that AirNav was offering. The lack of network data was an issue for me. I could live with the add on software - not an inconvienance for me. But I wanted to look at the AirNav product as on paper it looked a good competitor.
But I am not convinced. I won't be buying. The screen shots just have not impressed me. There appears to be a distinct lack of aircraft on the scope compared to the other crowd.
I wish everyone good luck. I wish the other forum was so open about discussions. At the end of the day we all have the same interests.
Regards
pilot_ngb
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There appears to be a distinct lack of aircraft on the scope compared to the other crowd.
Not sure I really understand this comment. Are you saying that coverage provided by a Radarbox is less than the SBS-1? That's certainly not my experience - when I switched from an SBS-1 to Radarbox, coverage improved slightly.
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I have an external aerial on SBS-1 and have excellent converage. I can post some screen shots put it's probably not allowed.
Based on what I have seen on the screen shot forum, there just appears to be less traffic visible - maybe people are filtering (??) flights but it's just my opinion based on what I have seen on the forum.
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Here's one example from the Scottish Highlands - not the busiest of airspaces I admit - http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4774/airnavradarbox2007shotaro7.gif
I use an antenna in the loft!!
Coverage is as good, if not better, than an SBS-1. Whether the new SBS-1e can now compete with the sensitivity of the Radarbox is still open to debate, but Kinetic obviously felt the need to improve the sensitivity of the SBS-1 to compete with Radarbox (my opinion).
And, of course, you've got all the network aircraft. Here's a quick screenshot of London traffic - hows that for coverage from the Scottish Highlands!!!
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I believe you have that opinion simply because you haven't seen it working. Try to go to a dealer and ask for a Demo.
Below I copy/paste a post we sent a few days ago that could be interesting to you.
We do consider that RadarBox is an upgrade to our competition.
Most of our dealers and users think the same.
The reasons are well explained in the document below:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/download/anrb/AirNav%20RadarBox%20vs%20Competition.pdf
We maintain a constant contact with all the shops and that sell RadarBox. Also 90% of the users that buy the product from airnavsystems.com leave a comment on why they decided to buy RadarBox - because they had SBS-1 and that system got totally outdated. This is now widely known in this market.
Just to name a few differences:
- Support that really works: we have an average 8 hour response time on our support email and a forum that is growing at a rate 3x compared with our competition where daily interesting topics being discussed and happy users helping newbies - unlike our competition forum where posts mentioning RadarBox often get deleted. Also you will see here the programmers developers changing opinions with day-to-day users unlike Kientic crew that constantly hides from everyone.
- New versions/upgrades/implementation of customer suggestions: we have maintained a rate of an upgrade each 4 months. Kinetic/ML&S have the same - let me say it again - Spectrum like software (Basestation) for the last 3 years.
- Superior graphics with NASA overlays (BTW because of this SBS-1e has recently been advertised with screen shots of Google Earth that are not supplied in the product - we are still considering taking legal action on this if the situation is repeated);
- Network: SBS-1/ML&S spent 2 years lying to their customers about a feature that they were never be able to develop. We have it on our software.
- All in one package: no need to install 100 (some of them unreliable) addons to have the software performing as you want;
Regarding your mention to raw data/mode-s packets I don't think that is of much interest to 99.9% of the users. For the others there are AirNav Systems Professional solutions: expect some great news from this area in the next months.
And most of all we don't lie to our customers (network feature, prices, deleting forum posts, not answering phone calls and emails, rarely having the development team talking with customers, etc).
We are here to have a better product and something that makes a real difference in this market. We will continue to work to add more features to the software and turn it into a more reliable one.
We do think this is a real upgrade and again, for a technical comparison please check:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/download/anrb/AirNav%20RadarBox%20vs%20Competition.pdf
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pilot_ngb,
Customers who have moved over from SBS to RB have said they either get the same amount of traffic or slightly more with RB. They are also very impressed by the supplied antenna.
I don't think you make any judgement just by viewing screenshots from differents setups. As we can easily show you screenshots from the best setups e.g
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1726.0
You have may be under the illusion that as in RB the labels do not overlap and just the aircraft is displayed, this may make it look less busy (but also less confusing)
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But I am not convinced. I won't be buying. The screen shots just have not impressed me. There appears to be a distinct lack of aircraft on the scope compared to the other crowd.
I'm sure that your intentions are honorable, but I did read your post as a "wind-up" from the "other side". I apologise if I'm wrong, as I'm sure I am :-)
I've had an SBS-1 for over 2 and a half years and RadarBox for over 18 months. The raw performance of the 2 side-by-side was pretty much the same, but 2 things really made it for me - the vastly superior Radarbox software that "works out of the box" without all the add-ons, and of course the RadarBox Network - the very thing that was promised with the SBS-1 and was the decider for me buying it. The fact that the SBS-1 network function was never launched in spite of a number of promises is another story altogether.
You're missing out big time by not going for a Radarbox, but that's your decision.
I'd be really interested in seeing your SBS-1 screenshots here and I don't think that there would be any problem with that. I ran my SBS-1 for the first time in ages the other day and I was amazed at just how basic the SBS-1 display is "out of the box"
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But I am not convinced. I won't be buying. The screen shots just have not impressed me. There appears to be a distinct lack of aircraft on the scope compared to the other crowd.
Interesting.
While in my experience the SBS and AirNav communities appear to disagree about pretty well everything else, the one area where there seems to be general agreement is that there is little or no difference between the ability of both boxes to pick up the same potential local traffic.
Based purely on chronology, it would be reasonable to expect that RadarBox, being a more recent product, is a tad more sensitive than the original SBS-1, and conversely the new SBS-1e may well have a slight edge over RadarBox, but I haven't seen any evidence to show that in either case the difference is more than a few percent at most.
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I'd agree with Dave. Coverage is probably very similar between the SBS-1 and Radarbox.
Allocator, your post reminded me of just how basic the SBS-1 is. I remember being so pleased when I finally got all the addons (Planeplotter, Populate, etc...) working, and posted this screenshot in the Kinetic forum.
(http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/8934/planeplotterpu8.th.jpg) (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=planeplotterpu8.jpg)
Strangely, I never posted a screenshot of the basic SBS-1 interface (Basestation) - I wonder why?!! Of course, now I can't see what I was so happy about back then!!
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As an ex SBS-1 user I find the Radarbox a much more useable and enjoyable product, the only change I made was to replace the supplied Airnav magmount with a more robust Kinetic magmount that also has a longer cable. Best of both worlds now :-)
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I forgot to mention the friendly and excellent help from other forum members.
If your not sure about something you just have to ask.
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Hello
This is a great discussion - it is what is lacking on the other forum.
I will post some screen shots in the morning. I am having some issues getting them uploaded onto Photobucket.
It's not a wind up. I as generally interested in moving over. Some the images you have shown me today does show equal coverage.
My wish list - local traffic/other user coverage/aircraft photo's/alert tool. I am also using PP with my SBS. I am happy with my setup, but it does take 5mins to get all the programs running :) My biggest gripe (with SBS) is lack of shared data and no software/firmware roadmap is visible to the end user
I know AirNav provides a one software solution - my question was on the coverage. You have started to show me some answers.
I will share a couple of screen shots tomorrow.
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Well, you are very welcome to the forum and I'm sure the guys will give you all the information you need. It's nice to be able to discuss the whole Mode S reception game without being jumped on by the moderators.
Here's a random live traffic only shot I happen to have on Flickr. Home is Shrewsbury UK, so you can get some idea of coverage. This is probably using the BS1100 external antenna. The link to the full size screen shot is below the picture.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2099/2316557441_19bb992eda.jpg)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2099/2316557441_026e9233a4_o.jpg
Of course, this is what it's really all about, Network traffic :-) The network tracks are marked with "*" after the callsign.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2018/2337244322_b278123bbd.jpg)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2018/2337244322_d0078d33ff_o.jpg
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You are right it is an interesting discussion. I have just received my Radarbox yesterday and have had an SBS for about 3 years. While the Radarbox will take some to get used to, my initial reaction is that both have advantages and disadvantages and I was aware of most of these when I made my purchase.
I don't think there is much noticeable difference in coverage. I was keen to have the Radarbox' network, (even with the 5 minute delay), although Plane Plotter may provide an alternative as more users sign up). I also like Radarbox' database and filters which will be very useful. However, so far I would say that the SBS radar screen is more visually appealing and customisable.
These are only initital views and I need more experience with the Radarbox. I am happy to be running both for now as they give me the "best of both worlds". I am sure both companies will continue to develop their products, although AirNav would to be far more communicative with their clients/users, whcih defienitely gives them a sales advantage.
Cheers
M
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And here are polar diagrams from my SBS-1 (top) and RadarBox (bottom). These are taken on different dates, so they are fairly meaningless as a direct comparison, but it does give you a rough idea. Traffic is deselected or filtered to see the polar diagrams easier.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/143/332622753_9bcd9022fc.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2118/2346248398_63d6c18de6.jpg)
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QF1 it's good to see someone with experience of both products. One thing going for the SBS1 is a 3rd party software group and fun. The RadarBox needs to be a bit more open!
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HadNav: far from a criticism (this forum is totally open for all opinion) but what do you mean with "The RadarBox needs to be a bit more open!"?
Most of SBS-1 addons can be used with RadarBox too as it has port 30003 available and outputting msgs in the same format as SBS-1.
We will do anything to have our users happy so please let me know your opinion.
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Most of SBS-1 addons can be used with RadarBox too as it has port 30003 available and outputting msgs in the same format as SBS-1.
Any news on that - last time we were told that it was a work-in-progress and that full compatibility with the SBS socket output was in the pipeline? (no pun intended).
I understand that add-ons like SquawkBox currently have to use different strategies depending on whether they are being fed from RadarBox's port 30003 output or SBS's.
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My wish list - local traffic/other user coverage/aircraft photo's/alert tool. I am also using PP with my SBS. I am happy with my setup, but it does take 5mins to get all the programs running :) My biggest gripe (with SBS) is lack of shared data and no software/firmware roadmap is visible to the end user
Well, Radarbox will satisfy your wish list. And you can still use Planeplotter with Radarbox. I'm sharer "pQ" on Planeplotter - see screenshot. BTW, you don't need to use Photobucket to attach screenshots in the forum, just use the "Attach" section when posting or replying. For a comparison of coverage in my location between SBS-1 and Radarbox, see http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=450.msg3272#msg3272
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Pilot_ngb, if you look at some of my screenshots, you'll see that I'm almost overwhelmed with live flights in France, let alone networked traffic. I have no experience of the SBS-1, though.
DC
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Hi Dave. We will implement the required changes on V2.10.
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Hello
Here is an image from my SBS. From Newcastle I get great cover well over 200nm North and East. West is approx Wallasey and South is somewhere between MCT and Birmingham.
And I have posted my first ever screen shot with SBS out of the box - she can see the difference.
I guess now that I am have seen more screen shots, the coverage might be similar.
Question - Can I use my external SBS aerial on a radarbox?
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You will get the same or better coverage with RB. Trust us, if that wasn't the case there would be loads of posts from customers who have moved over saying so but the reality is there isn't.
You can use your SBS antenna with the RB, you will just need a BNC to SMA adapter which you can get from maplins.
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Question - Can I use my external SBS aerial on a radarbox?
I use the BS1100 SBS-1 external antenna with my RadarBox with the BNC to SMA adaptor.
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Oh this is so tempting.
Anyone have an email address for Santa?
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http://www.emailsanta.com/email_santa.asp
But http://www.airnavsystems.com/RadarBox/order.html is more likely to work!
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is it possible to split the signal coming from the aerial so that I can run on two boxes? Probably a very silly question.
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Splitting the antenna cable will cause reduced reception (Sensitivity).
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Hi.
I ran SBS for over two years, and switched to Radarbox about a month back... within three days of swapping over I sold the SBS unit.
A team of wild horses wouldnt make me switch back now.
I find the RB to be more sensitive (I live 5 miles South of LHR) and with a loft mounted ariel I am pick things up (at high level) over Paris, Amsterdam, Southern Ireland and Birmingham (a wall in the loft blocks me to the North). With SBS (and the same airel in the same spot in the loft) I wasnt getting anything like that range.
I find the network data very addictive, I sit watching Tokyo for hours on end (really need to go back out there soon).
The screen took some getting used to, I even changed the colours to be the same as SBS (for climbing, decending and level flight) as after years of looking for light blue ones climbing ect it was too much of a stretch. However that was easy enough to do.
There are one or two niggles with the software, but at least the owners seem to listen and I am hopefull that they will impliment fixes (unlike the other side who seemed totally incapible of accepting that there were any problems at all)
If you can afford to make the switch, DO IT
Gulfstream
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I agree with your comments Gulfstream, just a few niggling software issues that should be sorted out in a later release.
There is the problem of the Airnav box being addictive which my SBS-1 never was.
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Is Airnavsystems worried (maybe the wrong word) about the new sensitivity of the SBS-e?
You guys are tempting me more.
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Is it possible to tailor the datablock to something like the attached file? Can the aircraft simple be removed?
I don't want any leader line.
I do want the data in a certain order and I do want it showing in the 5 o'clock position.
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The SBS-1e may be more sensitive, but I can't see how Kinetic can compete on overall functionality.
Most users who switched from an SBS-1 found the Radarbox more sensitive, so it may be that the SBS-1e has caught up with Radarbox. But the overall Radarbox package is so much better than the SBS-1e, that needs Planeplotter, BSAlert, FD7, and all the other addons to get even close to the Radarbox functionality.
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You can't tailor the datablock, other than change font size, colour. You can remove leader lines. You can move each datablock to the 5-oclock position, but Radarbox does an excellent job of moving the labels to avoid any overlap anyway. It took me a little time to get used to the label positions, but now I wouldn't go back to all the overalapping labels I used to get in Basestation.
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Hi Tarbat
What font and size are you using there?
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Arial 9 (with ClearType turned on in Windows).
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Thanks Tarbat, it does look better than the default, for my eyes anyway.
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pilot_ngb,
We are not worried, as Kinetic have not proven its more sensitive, even in there marketing rhetoric they stated only under certain cirumctances would it out peform there older model. So far only customers with known connectins to Kinetic have said they noticed a difference. Whatever the difference its obviously not major enough to affect us.
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I am still learning to use my new RB, but I must say that my SBS unit does have better reception and more aircraft and it is 3 yrs old! I have tried using the same aerial on both. So, for local aircraft I would have to say that my SBS is superior, but obviously it does not provide any network traffic other than with PP add-on.
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Can't agree with you there regarding the SBS-1 performance - maybe you got a good one :-)
Side by side comparison with live traffic shows that they are virtually identical.
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Hi Tarbat
I have tried the supplied RB antenna, which gives very few flights and then also tried two different SBS antennae with a BNC/SMA connector. I get reasonably good range with the RB, but not as good. Also, I have noticed that some flights are showing as ADSB earlier on SBS than RB i.e. they are showing up on RB, but Mode S only for five mins and then finally as full ADSB.
Maybe there is a better antenna set-up for the RB than the SBS, so I will keep working on finding the best set up.
Don't want to sound like I am complaining - just trying to get it working at the optimum.
I do really like the alerts which are working really well!
Cheers
M
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QF1, maybe your RB is faulty. Even with the supplied RB antenna, I got coverage as good as, if not better than, the SBS-1. Might be worth emailing Airnav support to see if you might have a faulty RB.
BTW, here's a comparison from when I switched from SBS-1 to RB back in February. Note the YELLOW is my Radarbox coverage, and the RED is my SBS-1 coverage from a few weeks earlier.
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Thanks for the reply Tarbat. I am not sure about your plots however. Apart from a couple of "spikes", it looks like the red lines are consistently further out than the yellow lines, which is similar to my experience.
However I will "play around with the antenna positions and see if I need to send the box back. It is not a big difference, but as everyone seems to think that the RB should have at least as good reception as the SBS, then I would like to have the same at my location.
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QF1,
Your earlier posts you indicated the difference was vast. Tarbats plotting information is not vastly different and many plot maps take weeks under different atmospheric conditions to get exact results.
If you feel there may be something wrong with your box please contact us through the methods in our signature. Do not post or any thread you see with your findings as they don't match the 99% consensus and they may be deemed as stiring to cause trouble.
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Do not post or any thread you see with your findings as they don't match the 99% consensus and they may be deemed as stiring to cause trouble.
That certainly is not my intention and I will send any concerns to the appropriate area. I thought that other users who had used both SBS and RB might be able to assist with advice re my setup. Tarbat often advises that he has much better reception with RB and I would like to have the same given that I have just invested in the new unit.
Anyway, it seems like a great piece of kit and I look forward to learning more from these forum postings.
Cheers
M
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Thanks for the reply Tarbat. I am not sure about your plots however. Apart from a couple of "spikes", it looks like the red lines are consistently further out than the yellow lines, which is similar to my experience.
But the Radarbox polar chart was just over 2 days, whereas the SBS-1 plot was over many weeks. And I'm in a very low traffic area!! I stand by my assessment - my RB gives slightly better coverage than the SBS-1 - see polar chart. If you're getting much worse coverage, then maybe your RB is faulty. That's if you actually want to see your RB working fully. I just get the feeling that no matter what I say, you won't believe me.
Perhaps if you posted polar charts for both systems we could see just how bad your RB coverage is.
Tarbat often advises that he has much better reception with RB and I would like to have the same given that I have just invested in the new unit.
I don't think I've EVER said that I get much better reception!! Just in this thread, all I've said is:
"coverage improved slightly"
"Coverage is as good, if not better, than an SBS-1"
"Coverage is probably very similar between the SBS-1 and Radarbox"
Please, don't attribute statements to me that I haven't made :(
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I have an external aerial on SBS-1 and have excellent converage. I can post some screen shots put it's probably not allowed.
Based on what I have seen on the screen shot forum, there just appears to be less traffic visible - maybe people are filtering (??) flights but it's just my opinion based on what I have seen on the forum.
Hi there,
I have not been around here for some time now - my browser opens @ 8 tabs on start-up of which ANRB is one - and I just caught the title of the topic as I flipped windows...you will excuse me but I have not read the whole thread so I am jumping in blind here...
You mention the screenshot forum - did you see any of these?
The first one compares an indoor antenna in a living room(!) vs the same standard antenna mobile - most impressive;
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1324.0
These second & third posts were mine - bear in mind that I am located in Banbury, Oxfordshire when you look at the map coverage and all you see are 'live' contacts - no network flights shown at all;
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1186.0
http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1190.0
It really is difficult to decide that the product is not for you just by looking at screenshots though...I mean no-one would buy the SBS-1 based upon this would they;
http://www.kineticavionics.com/imagepopup.php?images/Basestation1.jpg
And I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed to post some SBS-1 screenshopts over here - I've just done it! :-)
I for one would be interested to see what you see if you see what I mean :-)
At least we are allowed to mention the competition by way of comparison and not suffer the draconian wrath incurred by unsuspecting prospective purchasers - it was this very thing that sent me over here as I was all set to buy SBS-1 in the first instance...never regretted buying the RB for one second.
It is not perfect nor without it's issues but it is always 'work in progress' which is a magnitude away from its competition.
This forum is also a great resource without the iron fist that stifles good debate over at the Kinetic/ML&S forum.
Kind regards,
-=Glyn=-
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I am sorry if I have offended in any way, but it seems that some on this forum are as sensitive as they were on the SBS forum. However, I am pleased to see that we seem to be able to raise points without them being deleted. I am happy to post screenshots on here, but they would be fairly meaningless. As a three year user of this type of software I know what I can see on my own screen. I would also like to pint out that I have been using AirNav software for more than 10 years.
Tks
M
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However, I am pleased to see that we seem to be able to raise points without them being deleted.
Well mostly, unless you get classified as troublesome :-)
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Certainly not offended me in any way M and you will find folks around here are generally nowhere as 'touchy' as those on the other side...:-)
Sounds like you know your stuff around both the SBS-1 & AirNav Systems.
Obviously I am biased as I bought into one system over the other and although I wouldn't want to force my opinion on others I do feel that the prospective customer should research properly before deciding where he/she wants to go.
By just comparing screenshots of the ANRB vs. SBS I felt you were doing both packages a disservice...
For me after comparing both systems as best I could - and after being driven off the Kinetic forums (did anyone keep a copy of that thread before it was deleted?) the choice was a no-brainer.
I have read many times here that there is little to choose between either box on coverage assuming a like-for-like installation - a few here or a few there either way really is no big deal.
What is far more important and where I would focus my attention would be on the location/positioning of the antenna as can be seen from one of the links I posted above - Testmonkey achieved an incredible coverage using only the supplied antenna on a car roof...
A friend of mine who lives locally (Hello Terry:-) used to use the SBS-1 but has had the ANRB for @8 months or so now and would not go back.
He occasionally does plug in his SBS-1 just out of curiousity and ISTR him saying there was nothing in coverage between the two...and that is obviously using the same antenna, cable, etc.
Far better to look at the ease of use, features, support etc. than wondering if the new SBS may be a little more sensitive but what point the extra couple of aircraft at the fringes if you struggle to make them out against the clutter?
Just my humble opinion of course...and maybe I should have read the complete thread before posting! :-)
Kind regards,
-=Glyn=-
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I have both boxes,and thought that my sbs-1 was the bees knees.
But now the poor old sbs sits gathering dust,such a shame,especially with its cost.
The radarbox is superb in every aspect,and the aircraft quantities are no different at all.
Hope this helps.................Clive.