AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: kenwood on November 13, 2008, 06:47:23 PM
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Hi all
Any member from Ireland on the list?
Just bought the AirNav 2009 and seeking some comraidre from EI
Denis
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Hi, and welcome. Although I'm in Scotland, I know that there's at least four users from Ireland who've posted on the forum.
Dub33 - See http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=425.msg2992 and http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=439.msg3139
Dec - http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=484.msg3623
EINN-07 - http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=417.msg2956
dauphin_army - http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=42.msg127
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Hi tarbat,
Thanks for the message. i have had a look at them and notice that they haven't posted since 2007 so I assums very few people have the AirNav in EI.
I'm about 15 NM East from Cork Airport. I have the indoor antennaon a shelf in my room. Hope to be able to get an outdoor antenna as it would improve matters big time.
Denis
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Hi Denis. I often see very good coverage on the network in Ireland, so I suspect at least one or two are still actively monitoring in Ireland. Maybe they're just not on the forums at the moment.
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Good to see you're sharing decent coverage on the Network!
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Welcome to the community, the more the merrier
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Hi agn lads
Yep its very interesting to see whats flying overhead on the screen.
I'm mainly a comms man, being an Amateur Radio Operator, and also interested in
photography, spend some time when in Dublin on the spotters bank at Dub and also at Cork Airport photographying anything that moves but this is a different part of the hobby and I must say I'm really enjoying it so far.
I do notice that I'm not getting the routes that the aircraft are flying, seen on a different thread what they are doing, so hopefully it will be sorted.
Denis
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Hi Denis,
I am located in the NW of Ireland just outside Sligo. I am running an external Watson ADB-S antenna and picking up flights upto 220nm away over Scotland/Wales (strumble sector) and Lands end sector. All transatlantic traffic over Ireland also.
I also have my airband radio linked upto a Diamond D-777 external antenna and again picking up clear talk upto 200+ nm away. Pick up all aircraft on approach to Shannon/Derry/Galway/Donegal/Belfast FL150 and above and obviously Shannon Oceanic clearance/Shanwick OAC/Dublin approach and radar so pretty much all of the country.
If you have any questions let me know.
Mark
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Hi Denis,
This is the coverage I am currently getting.
Cheers
Mark
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Hi Mark,
As you are in such an ideal position, how do you explain the poor reception to the west and north of you. I'm 47m AMSL in a valley surrounded by hills. I'm using an SBS whip at 3 metres and my coverage is not much less than yours. Is it because not many aircraft fly in those areas?
Tom
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Hi Tom,
You are right in what you say regarding flight activity that far to the NW, there isn't much. Any outgoing flights to the USA or Canada I pick up over Northern Ireland anyway so can track them from over the Wirral or Strumble sectors incoming towards my location to approx 90nm to the West. Most Atlantic crossings are to the South of my location. However I have the highest mountain ranges in the surrounding counties of Sligo/Donegal/Leitrim right beside my house and these are obviously having an impact on range to the NW of my position.
I would be interested to see the polar diagram of the range you are getting. Why not post one on here and lets have a look at what you are pulling in.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
Many thanks for confirming what I guessed though I had forgotten about the mountains. I would guess that Ben Bulben and Knocknarea (not sure if I spelt that right) are near you. (The Christian Brothers' violence wasn't wasted on me 50 odd years ago - I'm originally from Dublin).
Here's a screenshot of my polar diagram.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Spelling 100% correct. I have the following mountain ranges in my way to the west/NW. Benbo/Bebulbin/Knocknarea/Truskmore/Dartry/Glencar!
You are getting pretty good coverage from your locaton, down into France as well. With the supplied Airnav antenna my max coverage was approx 140nm, max 25 flights on the 'my flights' tab and max 120 mmsgs/sec.
When I put the external Watson antenna up my coverage went to around 220nm although last night I had one pop up on the screen at 338nm! The most flights I have had on 'my flights' is 48 and 280 msgs/sec so I think it was 70 quid well spent!
Mark
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Mark,
What external Watson antenna are you using. It sounds that it is doing a good job for the price. Are there details on any website so that I can have a look at the spec. etc
Cheers,
Ian
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Hi Mark,
I didn't remember the other mountains around you, put it down to old age I suppose.
There is a lot of traffic in this part of the country, what with all the London Airports within range. I'm currently showing 58 flights with around 185 messages/sec. In the busy period I get up to 80 aircraft and up 300 messages/sec. My main interest is in military flights, especially the US Air Mobility Command 'Reach' flights. Most of them are non-positional so I have to use their squawk codes along with PlanePlotter and a free script called 'MyCircles' and the scanner of course to try to ascertain their positions. Many of the 'Reach' flights are civil contractors such as Omni Air and they do give positional information.
The antenna I'm using is a replacement mobile whip for the SBS-1 from Martin Lynch. I chose it as it is weatherproof and I can keep the original mobile whip for when I'm out and about. It's made by MyDel. I tried a couple of gain antennas and a preamp and they didn't seem to give any measureable advantage. The whip is temporarily atop a 49mm plastic waste pipe to which is fixed lid from a Quality Street tin as a ground plane. I've attached a photo taken on this very grey morning here.
Tom
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Impressive setup Tom ;-)
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Hi Kevin,
LOL. It works!
Tom
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Hi Kevin,
LOL. It works!
Tom
Mine is similar but involves a piece of string to enhance the setup.
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Nothing wrong with wet string ;-)
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Hi Tom,
I am picking up US Air Force flights most nights but are of no interest to me as I get no details apart from a photo!
Perhaps if I noted down the Squawk codes you would have info on where they are coming from, where they are going and purpose of the flight etc.
Let me know what info you would need. Good talking with you.
Mark
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Hi Ian,
Here is a link to the antenna that I'm using, I also have it fitted with an Elad Pre-amp and Bias-T.
http://www.rocketradio.co.uk/radar-extender-external-antenna-for-radarbox--sbs-1-1500-p.asp
Thanks,
Mark
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Mark,
Are you sharing on PP?
Tom
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Hi All,
Just got my new Radar box. Fantastic bit of kit. New to the forum. I'm located 2.5nm North East of Dublin Airport so able to provide the network with EIDW Approches and ground movements.
Stephen.
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Hi All,
Just got my new Radar box. Fantastic bit of kit. New to the forum. I'm located 2.5nm North East of Dublin Airport so able to provide the network with EIDW Approches and ground movements.
Stephen.
Hi Steven,
Welcome to the forum. 2.5 miles NE of Collinstown would put you around Swords. I was born in Dublin (in the Rotunda) 70 years ago and left when I was 17 to seek my fortune in England. RB can be very addictive so don't forget some sleep and eat from time to time. :0))
Enjoy,
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Yes very close to swords, living in Malahide. RB is certainly addictive beginning to realise.
S.
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Steve,
I'm seeing a number of aircraft on the network at EIDW on the ground but going like the clappers at over 100 kts. What's all that about?
Tom
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Tom,
Not sure what that is. They have no speed noted on my screen when they are on the ground.
S.
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Just two of them there now. I'll have to look into it tomorrow. I'm off to bed now.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Yes I'm sharing, the box is checked.
Mark
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Welcome Stephen what other traffic are you picking up other than Dublin approach.
Thanks,
Mark
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Mark,
Thanks for the link re the antenna you are using. I'll give it a look.
Cheers,
Ian
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No problem Ian, are you listening in on ATC and flight crew also?
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Hi Tom,
Just got the following on my flights:
US Air Force
RCH126
Reg: 02-1104
C/N - P104
Squawk: 3234
Type: C17A Globemaster 111
Bulgaria - Air Force
Flight ID: C252
Aircraft: CN 35
Squawk: 2650
C/N: 25508110052
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Mark,
Normal listening in on my scanner an aor 3000A but at the moment just watching. It's been unusual to have any blue sky of late!
Ian
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Exactly Ian make the most of it!!
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Hi Mark,
Cheers for those. The C-17 came my way at 09:47 but the Bulgarian didn't come my way at all.
Tom
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Mark,
Normal listening in on my scanner an aor 3000A but at the moment just watching. It's been unusual to have any blue sky of late!
Ian
Dense fog here, about 300 mtres viz. My wife has been stationary in her car for nearly four hours due to an accident involving three trucks and a car on the A14 near Newmarket.
Tom
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Tom,
Another few on my flights details below:
US Air Force
Reg: 63-7981
Type: Boeing KC135 Statotanker
C/N: 18598
Squawk: 7655
Poland Air Force
Reg: 1603
Type: Antonov An-26
C/N: 1603
Squawk: 7656
UK Army
Reg: ZG 993
Type: Britton-Norman BN-2T Islander AL1
C/N: 2202
Flight: 29 993
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We had very dense fog in NW of Ireland yesterday. Vis about 100 metres temp minus 2 wasn't nice for driving in!
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Thanks Mark.
Tom
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Just recieved Airnav Radar Box '09 in the door today from the uk. What an amazing piece of work, fantastic. Im in north Cork and from my upstairs room wit the magmount supplied I can pick up traffic as faraway as swansea. hope to put up an external up soon. This takes the hobby to another level and its the best money I have spent in a long time - I am kicking myself I did not buy it sooner. Well done Airnav!!!!!!!!!!
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Welcome, 30682g! Hope you're sharing on the network with that coverage.
Don't forget to stick your pin in the user map http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1685.0 (http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=1685.0).
Rod
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Hi Mark,
Picking up most of Ireland (screen shot attached) with the supplied desktop antenna.
Stephen.
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Hi Stephen,
That's not bad...my latest polar attached.
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yeah a lot better, what antenna are you using?
s.
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External on the gable wall......Watson Radar extender with a pre-amp and Bias T
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where can i get one of those?
S.
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70 GBP from the UK for the antenna
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£70 that's not including the pre amp and bias t?
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hi denis i am in derry north west just got my airnav2009.
mybe pick your brains later,all the best.
from robbie
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nope just the antenna. I think the preamp and Bias -T, 12V adaptor etc all in is around 180 GBP
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Hi Robbie,
Good to see another user in Ireland. You should get good coverage across into Scotland from where you are. I pick up the Ryanair flights into Derry on a regualr basis from my location both on Radar and Airband radio.
Cheers
Mark
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£70 that's not including the pre amp and bias t?
Due to the low volume that the preamps and bias tees are made in (let's be generous in that view) and the weather sealing that the preamp needs, you are looking at about £155 extra for the ELAD units together. And add something for 12V power supply too, and about £25-30 for the coax and connectors, and it's not far short of £200 in total.
An ELAD pre-amp has a NF of about 0.9dB max, whereas the RB itself is probably about 2dB NF. A 10m run of Westflex 103 will increase that to about 3.5dB, whereas you are looking at about a total noise figure of 1.2dB for the case with the preamp. So, a 2.2dB worse NF translates directly to that much signal:noise reduction and thus a range reduction of 22.4%.
You can then decide if the benefit (and that's a theoretical calculation based on a clear take-off in all directions, a preamp does not get signals through a hill for instance) is worth the cost.
Yes, I should probably have put this in my RF Specifications thread, perhaps I will!
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You lost me after the '£200 in total', but i got the idea a pre amp isn't going to work miracles.
Thanks for explaining for me.
Stuart
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You lost me after the '£200 in total', but i got the idea a pre amp isn't going to work miracles.
Thanks for explaining for me.
Stuart
I was simply performing a cascaded noise figure calculation, based on my estimate (in the absence of confirmation) that the RB noise figure is 2-3dB. Essentially it means that the recoverable signal is reduced towards the thermal noise in the receiver, and hence is harder to recover the data.
A 3dB worsening is a halving in effective signal power, and range is proportional to the square root of power, so that 3dB is equal to root 2, or 1.414, then the reciprocal of that, 0.707, is the range ratio, so you lose 29.3% range.
Not trying to blind with science, but it's interesting to see whether theory and reality choose to agree with each other!
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Cheers Brian
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Lost me as well Brian but to simplify things for the non technical people like me here's what I did.
Have just turned on RB and have 22 flights 4 of which are not showing any 'tracking' data. This is with Bias-T switched on and powering the pre-amp.
Have disconnected it and flights fell off to 17 flights 9 with no tracking data.
Re-connected and my flights instantly pulled in 28 flights 4 of which have no tracking data. Also the furthest flight I was receiving with pre-amp swithced on was 207nm with it switched off 165nm.
Each time I do this there is a significant change in the number of flights which tells me that the pre-amp is certainly working well and having a significant impact on what I am seeing and tracking.
Also what I find interesting is that you talk about loss in the cable. I am running 20 meters of coax from my antenna to where my desktop is located!
Am I missing something here!
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Preamps do make a difference of improvnig your range for RadarBox.
Fenris we are software guys here so we don't fully understand what you have written either but your calculations do not set with reality.
Everybody who has bought the preamp kit from our site has had an improvement in range. Depending on location, some customers have picked up 30-60% more aircraft.
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Hi All,
I'm watching this thread because it came up in our website referrer stats.
I often get asked about the mast-head pre amps, and whether I stock them - I don't! (Although I can supply if someone really really wants one, although they usually don't want it once I mention the extra cost of the bias-T)
I am not a great fan of pre-amps, I've never known one to be as selective as you would want, and also they can overload the front end of the receiver. Some people like them, some don't. "Horses for Courses" on this one.
So, putting the cat amongst the pigeons - what do I advise to increase reception on the RadarBox?
Firstly, the antenna mentioned already in this thread or if you want something slightly smaller then I recommend the Radrama antenna. Antenna should be up in in the clear and have as good a view of the sky as possible.
Next, the co-ax!
Short runs can be twin shielded RG8X mini-8 (below 10m) above that you want good quality RG213, Westflex or similar.
But, there are always losses with co-ax so my tip is to get your radarbox as close as possible (sheltered, not outside) to the antenna using a longer USB A-B lead for connecting to the PC (much cheaper than a pre-amp to recoup lost signals!)
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Preamps do make a difference of improvnig your range for RadarBox.
Fenris we are software guys here so we don't fully understand what you have written either but your calculations do not set with reality.
Everybody who has bought the preamp kit from our site has had an improvement in range. Depending on location, some customers have picked up 30-60% more aircraft.
For reference, I'm an RF engineer with more than 25 years of experience, so the calculations are correct in terms of the theory.
However, there are other effects going on too, so what I have calculated is not the whole story, it is also necessary to know what the RB ADC/FPGA combination (the receiver back end) does in the presence of multi-path signals and in the presence of time-overlapping signals at different strengths. And its selectivity, the ability to reject other local signals on various other frequencies.
Perhaps I'll write something a little more detailed when I have time, as always no one is required to read it, it will be for information only.
What I will say is that improving the system noise figure by a couple of dB could, under some circumstances, create the increase in aircraft received you mention simply because the radiated pattern from an aircraft can sometimes lead to signal loss at less than the theoretical maximum range because of nulls aligned with the direction to the RB in question. A few dB in that case can make the difference between a low enough error rate to receive a complete message and missing that message. It's all about statistics, there are very few certainties involved. The same situation twice may result in successful reception on one occasion and not on the other.
That's why I was pointing out that it's up to the individual to decide if that £200 is worth spending, and that will depend on how much coax they need to run, and how cluttered their horizon is. There is naturally their perception involved too.
Did I say this wasn't easy? I'll say it again then - this isn't easy!
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Interesting comments from Mark at Rocket Radio and ones that make sense. You either have success with a pre-amp or you don't.
I have a question for you then Mark. I currently run 20 m of Westflex from the pre-amp to the bias-T. In terms of range if I were to cut the distance to my radarbox by 50-70% and make that a run of 7-10m coax would I see a 'significant' increase in flights and distance?
Many Thanks,
Mark
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I have a question for you then Mark. I currently run 20 m of Westflex from the pre-amp to the bias-T. In terms of range if I were to cut the distance to my radarbox by 50-70% and make that a run of 7-10m coax would I see a 'significant' increase in flights and distance?
Westflex 103 is about 1.3dB per 10m, so halving the run would decrease the loss by 1.3dB.
Since the NF and gain of the preamp remains the same, as does the RB sensitivity, a quick cascaded NF calculation suggests that the system NF would reduce by 0.1dB. That is effectively below the level at which you could measure the effect.
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Hi Brian, keep the technical stuff coming, but keep it as simple as possible for us less technically able - I'm planning on getting all my antennas outside later in the year - looking at buying a Diamond D-777 and VX-4000, plus a radar extender http://www.radioworld.co.uk/~radio/catalog/radarextender-external-antenna-radarbox-p-5965.html?osCsid=67c910deb8541fefea3256a3ea9dd2ef , to add to the collection. I am/was planning to fit a mast-head amp. to the radar extender, and also have a Jim-M75 just inside the loft, where downleads come in, terminate each downlead with N-plugs for ease and speed of connecting/disconnecting for comparison and experimentation. Certainly, with analogue signals at least, I've had results in the past, which contradict the theories sometimes, but this digital stuff does seem to be a rather different kettle of fish!
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Planning on buying an external what would one recommend. I am looking at the Radar Extender -v- the Radar Rama which one is recommend. Hope someone can help - thanks - Mick
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Planning on buying an external what would one recommend. I am looking at the Radar Extender -v- the Radar Rama which one is recommend. Hope someone can help - thanks - Mick
I have bought a RadarRama, but not yet erected it.
The two are roughly comparable, note that the gain of the larger antenna is achieved by narrowing the vertical radiation pattern (so the "doughnut" shape of the 3D radiation pattern is thinner but of a larger outer diameter) which means it is a little more optimised for the horizontal and so less good at receiving signals that are at an angle above the horizon. How big this effect is I can't say for sure. It's probably not that large, but will be affected by the surroundings, so that's another reason to get the antenna clear of local obstructions if you can.
The Radar Extender is quite big and more conspicuous, that might be important if your neighbours are a bit awkward and don't like what they perceive as visual "blights" on their view!
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Thanks Brian. one could chance putting the extender in the loft. I have a two storey house. By placing the RB antenna supplied out on the upstairs window I am recieving flights over Swansea(I am in North Cork). By placing the extender in the loft will probally give me the same maybe better results. I have several antenna's outside at the moment for radio - there will be war if more go up i could get my walking papers. thanks for the advice. I can get the Radar Rama + connectors to the door from uk for €60. I was just checking before making the purchase. All the best - Mick
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Hi Robbie,
Good to see another user in Ireland. You should get good coverage across into Scotland from where you are. I pick up the Ryanair flights into Derry on a regualr basis from my location both on Radar and Airband radio.
Cheers
Mark
thanks mark,over the moon with the airnav box,when i connect to my laptop outdoors its magic love it,two questions i am up at a good height line of sight is good, i am thinking of getting a outdoor aerial,what do you recommend and
what coax is best ,thanks roobbie
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm110/robbiecber/AirNavRadarBox2009Shotat20090110110.gif)
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Mark,
Let us see a screenshot of your polar diagram. If you are in a really good position you may just need to try your whip antenna on a pole outside. If that gives better coverage then you may be better off buying an inexpensive antenna.
Tom