AirNav Systems Forum

AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: lambertw on November 12, 2011, 09:54:45 AM

Title: Mlat
Post by: lambertw on November 12, 2011, 09:54:45 AM
Just had a C130 pass over my location on pp Mlat, approx 1mile out of sink with map on screen,not bad eh.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: lambertw on November 13, 2011, 07:28:59 AM
We've just got to get Mlat on rb it's brill,I'm now seeing aircraft pass over me that I wasn't aware of and they all  tie up with visual conformation.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: tarbat on November 13, 2011, 07:42:44 AM
We've just got to get Mlat on rb it's brill

You can already show multilateration results in Radarbox 3D - see http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=4578
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Hoff12 on January 05, 2012, 12:52:48 AM
Any chance ANRB will be able to do Mlat this year? We've been waiting years.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: lambertw on January 05, 2012, 04:40:21 PM
I went PP for MLAT after waiting to see which way ANRB was heading I now run both together,and got the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Hoff12 on January 05, 2012, 06:55:10 PM
however anrb has better coverage which means it would be able to mlat in europe which pp cannot
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Horsham Spotter on January 05, 2012, 07:44:57 PM
And as Tarbat quoted.
Only in 3D with ANRB.
Steve.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: tarbat on January 07, 2012, 08:23:36 AM
Any chance ANRB will be able to do Mlat this year? We've been waiting years.

Most recent update from Airnav (http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=5432.msg67549#msg67549) was:

However MLAT is a feature we are working on for the future. It is not something that was a stated feature when anyone bought RadarBox.   We feel we have said enough on this topic now,

Like most developers, Airnav are unlikely to commit to a release date (even a year) until nearer launch.  In the meantime, why not use Planeplotter for MLAT - it's only €12 (plus VAT) per year.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: bratters on January 07, 2012, 09:57:35 AM
Any chance ANRB will be able to do Mlat this year? We've been waiting years.

Most recent update from Airnav (http://www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=5432.msg67549#msg67549) was:

However MLAT is a feature we are working on for the future. It is not something that was a stated feature when anyone bought RadarBox.   We feel we have said enough on this topic now,

Like most developers, Airnav are unlikely to commit to a release date (even a year) until nearer launch.   In the meantime, why not use Planeplotter for MLAT - it's only €12 (plus VAT) per year.

Taking that statement at face value, there will be no Mlat - nor presumably anything else  of any consequence - before 2014.

Many of us who have had their boxes since 2008 will be thinking of replacements long before then methinks.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: tarbat on January 07, 2012, 10:03:14 AM
Taking that statement at face value, there will be no Mlat - nor presumably anything else  of any consequence - before 2014.

How on earth do you come to that conclusion?  Just because nothing is announced yet doesn't mean nothing will be delivered.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: jannuh on January 07, 2012, 10:46:50 AM
however anrb has better coverage which means it would be able to mlat in europe which pp cannot
Huh...? You believe everything A.N. says, don't You?

Just look at the facts, You'll see that P.P. has many,  many, many more users then ANRB!!

Oh, you look at the figures how many ANRB's sold? Don't they say nothing;
I think many ANRB boxes lying somewhere, waiting for better times, if they'll ever come.....

Forget the 4 days now, or in 3 weeks etc.; 4 days become 400 days, 3 weeks become 3 years etc.

MLAT? ANRB can not, PP can say: Yes, we can!!! (and they'll do!!)

Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: tarbat on January 07, 2012, 11:24:43 AM
however anrb has better coverage which means it would be able to mlat in europe which pp cannot

Even satcom, a PP advocate, admits that:

What an interesting comment about Mlat in Europe

The only reason it "doesnt work " is that PP users in Europe either cant be bothered , or are too frightened to contribute due to local legislation....
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: bratters on January 07, 2012, 01:02:55 PM
Taking that statement at face value, there will be no Mlat - nor presumably anything else  of any consequence - before 2014.

How on earth do you come to that conclusion?  Just because nothing is announced yet doesn't mean nothing will be delivered.

Let's consider what you wrote - "Like most developers, Airnav are unlikely to commit to a release date (even a year) until nearer launch.  In the meantime, why not use Planeplotter for MLAT - it's only €12 (plus VAT) per year."

If that doesn't mean at least year's wait, what on earth does it mean? The translation you suggest seems to be "we're not going to mention release dates in future, so nobody will be disappointed and may just be surprised".  With Shiptrax 3 years late and umpteen unfulfilled promises of impending RB upgrades that might be a wise change of policy in some respects. However what encouragement does this give to us RB lovers who were/are hoping for something much more reassuring?

On top of that when a senior beta tester comes up with "why not go out and buy another product in the meantime (whatever "in the meantime" may signify in a patently timeless context) one must be forgiven for being sceptical.


Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: AirNav Support on January 07, 2012, 01:15:57 PM
MLAT feature will be released by us, do not worry, the details are deliberately kept quiet and not passed on to anyone outside AirNav (including beta testers) as this is sensitive information and has a competitive disadvantage if released too early.

We understand and thank you for your patience regarding ShipTrax, unfortunately many projects in the world with massive budgets (A380, 787 all the way down to mobile phones) experience delays from software, manufacturing that are very difficult to perceive before hand. For this reason we are not giving any specific timelines for any projects untill near release.

There are many projects lined up (including MLAT) and rest assured they will be ready and you will be pleased when they arrive :)
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: tarbat on January 07, 2012, 01:36:01 PM
If that doesn't mean at least year's wait, what on earth does it mean?

bratters, you seem to be twisting my words around to satisfy your own interpretation.  I simply suggested that Airnav are unlikely to commit to a release date until nearer launch.

Nowhere do I suggest that means a year's wait for MLAT.  I'm hoping they've learnt from ShipTrax in that it's unwise to announce a product until you're confident of a launch date.

On top of that when a senior beta tester comes up with "why not go out and buy another product in the meantime (whatever "in the meantime" may signify in a patently timeless context) one must be forgiven for being sceptical.

I was simply suggesting an alternative for those that are impatient for an imminent delivery of MLAT.  €12 (plus VAT) will buy you MLAT (PP) for a year.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: CoastGuardJon on January 07, 2012, 01:54:17 PM
MLAT feature will be released by us, do not worry, the details are deliberately kept quiet and not passed on to anyone outside AirNav (including beta testers) as this is sensitive information and has a competitive disadvantage if released too early.


So, AN, are you now saying that MLAT  can be implemented using current RBs, or is this going to be a Mk II device?

There are many projects lined up (including MLAT) and rest assured they will be ready and you will be pleased when they arrive :)

I've learnt from your past promises not to hold my breath whilst waiting, so I don't think I'll start again now!
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: bratters on January 07, 2012, 02:43:19 PM
In response to Airnav, thanks for coming back and making your case.  With respect to "there are many projects lined up (including MLAT) and rest assured they will be ready and you will be pleased when they arrive" I have no doubt that the quality of whatever eventually comes will be excellent and we will indeed be pleased when they arrive. It's all a question of timing.

In response to Tarbat,  if Airnav have "learnt from ShipTrax in that it's unwise to announce a product until you're confident of a launch date" then we have a measure of agreement. That policy however has its pitfalls and, as has been clearly expressed on this very forum, extended periods of silence do not indicate that "no news is good news" - on the contrary no news has been literally that and has given rise to threads like this.

A balanced view as to the release of information is necessary. You have to keep the fish on the line even if the keepnet isn't yet to hand.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: AirNav Support on January 07, 2012, 02:55:51 PM
Thats understood Bratters, we will do that.

Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: jannuh on January 07, 2012, 03:05:41 PM
however anrb has better coverage which means it would be able to mlat in europe which pp cannot

Even satcom, a PP advocate, admits that:

What an interesting comment about Mlat in Europe

The only reason it "doesnt work " is that PP users in Europe either cant be bothered , or are too frightened to contribute due to local legislation....

Agree Tarbat, you see very few sharers of any data via internet in Germany; not allowed is not allowed, so you better don't do it, same or less strict in some other countrys in western-weurope, or even more strict in middle-east etc.

But MLAT is alive in PP, AN better doesn't speak of it...   it's too early!
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: tarbat on January 07, 2012, 04:19:43 PM
Agree Tarbat, you see very few sharers of any data via internet in Germany;

Plenty of Radarbox sharers in Germany.
http://batchgeo.com/map/a9ba591cd3e3f0fc0d5f0f9c56fc53b3
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: jannuh on January 07, 2012, 07:55:27 PM
I count 6 in the Netherlands, 11 in Germany, 4 Switzerland, 3 Austria, 4 Italy, 21 France(6 just in Paris).
(must be lot more RB's sold)

Agree, 11 in Germany isn't that bad...
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: lambertw on January 27, 2012, 09:16:15 AM
Mlat is said to not always 100% reliable at pinpointing aircrafts exact location, and I go along with that,but having said that at my location I do not have many mod aircraft pass directly over me,but those that do in my case have been Mlated 100% accurate I am pleased to say,since using Mlat the sky have come alive with aircraft around my location that I know are out there but previously not been able to see on screen or in the sky,I understand that not all aircraft can be Mlated but since using it the hobby has become even more addictive.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: DaveG on February 07, 2012, 06:06:23 PM
MLAT feature will be released by us, do not worry, the details are deliberately kept quiet and not passed on to anyone outside AirNav (including beta testers) as this is sensitive information and has a competitive disadvantage if released too early.

Although this sounds good, I do not understand how it can be classed as "sensitive information and has a competitive disadvantage"  All other Virtual Radars are already capable Mlat, and the only main interface PlanePlotter supports it, so as I said unsure how sensitive it needs to be.

Unless of course you (Airnav) are thinking of doing Mlat within the AirNav Radarbox software and on the Radarbox network only with blocks in place so it can't be used outside the network.  If this is the case, bad direction, or at least for Radarbox users.  Mlat benefits greatly from "more" ground station around the better.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: DaveG on February 07, 2012, 06:09:31 PM
I was simply suggesting an alternative for those that are impatient for an imminent delivery of MLAT.  €12 (plus VAT) will buy you MLAT (PP) for a year.

That only gets you to see what other Mlat ground stations are providing, does not give your location the ability to Mlat contacts
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: lambertw on February 08, 2012, 08:55:04 AM
Seems to me that we ANRB users are left behind when it comes to MLAT.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Runway 31 on February 08, 2012, 09:40:20 AM
I wouldnt think we are any more left behind than users of any other system as they all rely on Planeplotter at this time to show non-plotters.  Also no matter what system you use if there are not enough data contributors MLAT does not work.

Alan
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: bratters on February 08, 2012, 09:52:17 AM
I would have thought that in the UK at least (a bit selfish I know!) there are sufficient RB users to satisfy the requirements of an Airnav specific MLAT system.
Certainly I would prefer an all Airnav system if it were feasible as I prefer the simplicity and presentation of the Airnav product - despite all my moaning about the various shortcomings  :)

It would be nice if things could be speeded up a bit though.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: tarbat on February 08, 2012, 10:27:31 AM
I would like to see two things:

1. An Airnav specific MLAT system, where the MLAT calculations are all carried out on a central server, with the MLAT'ed aircraft positions distributed across the Airnav network.

2. A change to Radarbox to access the OLE/COM interface from Planeplotter to extract MLAT'ed aircaft and integrate them into the Radarbox aircraft lists and maps.  We can already view MLAT'ed aircraft from Planeplotter in Radarbox 3D (using the KLM interface), it would be nice to be able to view them in 2D as well.

This use of the OLE/COM interface is already proven in ShipTrax, where I can use my sp2trax program to view ShipPlotter networked ships in ShipTrax.  We need the same facility in Radarbox so that Radarbox users have the benefits of BOTH networks, along with the MLAT'ed aircraft.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: satcom on February 08, 2012, 02:55:31 PM
Option 1

I thought the idea was that AirNav were developing thier own Mlat !!

Option 2

Against COAA policy as defined in the EULA
No Mlat or shared  plots to be broadcast/re networked outside of the PlanePlotter network.

Users found to be attempting to re network the data would of course be switched off immediately [ it would be pretty obvious within minutes what was happening ]

Anyway , with AirNavs own Mlat system about to be rolled out , option 2 won't be needed.  :O)
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: DaveG on February 08, 2012, 04:32:51 PM
Don't you think the "best" solution is to have RB abile to provide RAW data in the format that a Mlat can work, and have it output to RB Local, RB Network or any third party software (such as currently PP).

The biggest benefit would be all capable boxes outputting RAW Mlat data to any software, thus providing the widest coverage.

As reading Tarbat's post above, you seem to wish to have everything but give nothing, in option 2, or have I read that wrong ! 
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: tarbat on February 08, 2012, 04:38:52 PM
Option 2

Against COAA policy as defined in the EULA
No Mlat or shared  plots to be broadcast/re networked outside of the PlanePlotter network.

Why would it be against the EULA?  The MLAT and shared plots would remain on my PC, in my instance of Radarbox, and NOT sent out onto the Airnav network. After all, we can already take MLAT plots from Planeplotter and display them in Radarbox 3D.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: satcom on February 08, 2012, 04:50:42 PM
Radar box can't supply the correct data for 3rd party  mlat [ there's only one 3rd party mlat ] but as I have said , RB users can always subscribe to the existing mlat provider until AirNavs own system is ready.

Chris said...

"The MLAT and shared plots would remain on my PC, in my instance of Radarbox, and NOT sent out onto the Airnav network. After all, we can already take MLAT plots from Planeplotter and display them in Radarbox 3D."

Same difference  then....you would still have to subscribe to Mlat to see the plots which you would then pipe through to your "own" RB screen.... in which case , I agree ,  it would not be in breach of EULA

Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: chewycanes on February 09, 2012, 12:02:33 AM
Hi
I don't know all the intracacies involved about Mlat.

I currently subscribe to PP but as a Radarbox user i cannot provide data to aid better accuracy in my area. When i first logged on and had the settings to supply data it caused problems.

I am in East Sussex and do get my fair share of corrupted  ModeS signals due to the amount of aircraft and the distance i can receive into France and up the east coast to Norfolk.

My concern is that as a result of this corrupted data again will not be able to contribute to the accuracy in my area.

Hopefully AN will have developed some super algorithm to exclude these errors ?

Brian


Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Canonjohns40D on February 09, 2012, 01:09:25 AM
I would have thought that in the UK at least (a bit selfish I know!) there are sufficient RB users to satisfy the requirements of an Airnav specific MLAT system.
Certainly I would prefer an all Airnav system if it were feasible as I prefer the simplicity and presentation of the Airnav product - despite all my moaning about the various shortcomings  :)

It would be nice if things could be speeded up a bit though.
I'd go with bratters I feel MLAT takes the hobby to the next level and I want to do it with Radarbox
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: satcom on February 09, 2012, 07:14:38 AM
  " I'd go with bratters I feel MLAT takes the hobby to the next level and I want to do it with Radarbox "

Well , I'll take that statement  as praise indeed for the only system that can provide Mlat .
Its now four years since    ++Mlat     was launched.....and no one else is even close to launching their own system...doesnt that tell you something about the amount of work and dedication needed to set something like this up ?
Mlat of course is not the end of the story....there are more  developments on the way
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Hoff12 on September 02, 2012, 06:53:41 AM
Airnav team, any more update on Mlat since 7 Jan 2012 when you posted "MLAT feature will be released by us, do not worry" on this thread? Thanks
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: AirNav Support on September 02, 2012, 07:20:23 PM
Work is still progressing, more details will be announced nearer the release.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: malc41 on January 17, 2015, 02:13:47 PM
So we are over two years down the line and still nothing?
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: oliver14 on January 26, 2015, 03:50:41 PM
Is there "anything" new in the pipeline ?
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: CoastGuardJon on January 26, 2015, 09:26:00 PM
Hi Oliver, that's a NO and as I understand it the ANRB never will be MLAT capable......?
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: neroon79 on January 27, 2015, 06:01:38 AM
As far as I know it is a yes for the existing hardware. Current "timestamp generator" for received data packets not accurate enough? But considering the current problems with thrid party hardware connected to PCs running V5.00.072: Maybe Airnav is about to launch a new MLAT capable hardware.

Ingo
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: oliver14 on January 27, 2015, 09:55:16 AM
I do hope so, I really love the Radarbox, which, like a lot of people, I have had for many many years, but it does seem to be standing still now, with not even a whisper of any new features or developments, and not just mlat. 
This is most unusual these days in a world where technology is moving on at an almost unbelievable pace.

Do we know if anybody is working on anything ?   or is this it ?
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: CoastGuardJon on January 27, 2015, 12:39:07 PM
Hi Ingo, I was referring to the current RB that we've all bought and used for years, which is the question I thought Oliver was asking, not having to buy some new piece of hardware as in " Maybe Airnav is about to launch a new MLAT capable hardware."  and not speculating on what AN may eventually put on the market.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: neroon79 on January 27, 2015, 01:04:30 PM
Hi Jon I was refering to this part
Quote
and as I understand it the ANRB never will be MLAT capable......?
of your reply. The current HW is not capable of MLAT. As far as I know due to the accuracy of the reception timestamp. If you want to do MLAT you need a very very accurate reception time of an received data packet. Because a few 100 milisecs variation in reception time will result in many miles of position variation.

As I understand Oliver asked for anything in the pipeline. And for me that would include new hardware.

Ingo
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: CoastGuardJon on January 27, 2015, 05:22:42 PM
Hi Ingo, I was just referring to the current RB (which IMO will never be), not a Mk ll or later!
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: neroon79 on January 27, 2015, 06:38:58 PM
Hi Jon, I just wanted to confirm, that -according to my information- you are right with your statement, that MLAT can't be realised with the existing hardware. 

Further I wanted to tell that there might be a chance for MLAT based on a new hardware, because of the fact Oliver asked for anything I  the pipeline. IMO that inclues new hardware.

I hope we are "clear of conflict" now.

Ingo
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: CoastGuardJon on January 28, 2015, 12:43:38 PM
Hi Ingo - no conflict, just slight confusion!
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: lambertw on February 07, 2015, 10:53:56 AM
I have given up on expecting ANRB to come up with a MALT capable system, over two years now in waiting since start of this thread ,(in my opinion its never going to happen ).
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: oliver14 on February 11, 2015, 03:04:47 PM
By the time they have got round to it, I reckon almost everything will be using ADS-B anyway, as I have said before, I would love an advanced " my flights " filter, using wildcards, 43C*, AE*, etc.

You can do this on the map. 

Does anyone work on the development side these days ? or are all resources being used on the public domain side of things !
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Runway 31 on February 11, 2015, 03:10:37 PM
Oliver,

I may be picking you up wrong but you can filter 43C*, AE or any other wildcard on myflights.

If there is something you would like to see on the software drop them an email.

As has been stated previously MLAT is not possible with the current hardware.

Alan
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: EK01 on February 11, 2015, 03:46:20 PM
You certainly can. Click on the ´Alerts´box and you can put in wildcards under various headings .
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Runway 31 on February 11, 2015, 03:56:44 PM
You can filter via quick filter anything on the drop down list.

Alan
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: oliver14 on February 12, 2015, 11:29:00 AM
Hi, and thanks for the replies, sorry I should have said, it was multiple filters I would like, unless I am mistaken you can only select one in my flights, e.g. 43C*  it would be good to be able to filter AE*,43C*, etc.

Is this possible now, it doesn't seem to work for me,  cheers.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Runway 31 on February 12, 2015, 12:11:53 PM
Are we talking alerts or filters here?

Whether in myflights or network flights you can only filter on one thing at a time using quick filter. How are you filtering on more than one the network?

Alan

Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: oliver14 on February 12, 2015, 12:17:40 PM
Hi Alan, I want a quick filter to be able to read:

Mode-S  =  43C*, AE* in the my flights list, to single out US and RAF aircraft,

hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Runway 31 on February 12, 2015, 12:26:38 PM
Understand that Oliver, how do you do it on the Network or are you talking RB24 here when you say on the map?

Alan
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: CYYZGUY on February 12, 2015, 01:04:34 PM
I have noticed a huge increase in ADS-B flights in Canada over the last 6 months.....It wont be long until all aircraft are compliant.

Europe has it way better then north america at the moment!

:)

Jason
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: oliver14 on February 12, 2015, 01:30:39 PM
Hi Alan, I am not on the network, and this is on the Radarbox software.

In filters, advanced filters, and on the aircraft tab you can select:

B78*, A38*, B74* etc, and this allows you to view just these aircraft on the radarbox map.

You can do this on My flights quick filter, but only for one option, e.g. B78*   it does not allow you to select multiple options, if you type in B78*,A38* all flights vanish.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: Runway 31 on February 12, 2015, 02:17:20 PM
Thanks for the explanation Oliver, it helps to know what you mean, I didnt have a clue what you meant by being able to do it on the map.  I will add it to the requests list.

Alan
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: oliver14 on February 12, 2015, 02:28:25 PM
Great, thanks Alan.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: oliver14 on February 13, 2015, 06:11:48 PM
In answer to CYYZGUY,

It's not bad here in the UK, but there is still a way to go, Flybe are notoriously invisible on the map at present, the majority of the fleet being Dash 8's, ( surely they will have to start soon, although they seem to have a lot of comings and goings within the fleet ).

And the Canadair CRJ family of aircraft are few and far between at the moment, although I have spotted one Lufthansa regional a/c with ads-b, so they have started upgrading.

MLAT will become less important as we approach 2020, USAF KC10s are now being upgraded, and I am sure the other heavies will have to follow suit, and GA aviation seems to be taking up ads-b increasingly as new options start to appear.
Title: Re: Mlat
Post by: EK01 on February 14, 2015, 12:30:34 PM
And as if to confirm that, just flown over here with full ADSB showing on the map :

85-0027 c/n 48232 KC-10A USAF using flight ID of ´Blue 31´