AirNav Systems Forum

AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: tarbat on September 20, 2010, 09:30:30 AM

Title: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 20, 2010, 09:30:30 AM

Just a heads up, the excellent Flight Display is once again available, for those using Planeplotter.  It now does route lookups on 5 sites:
Libhomeradar (http://www.libhomeradar.org/)
FRL (http://www.flightroutelookup.com/FlightRoute/)
FlightStats (http://www.flightstats.co.uk/)
Flytecom (http://www.flytecomm.com/)
FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/)

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5007402685_d2ef429c65_o_d.jpg)

Although even Dave Reid's FRL service can't resolve some of these alphanumeric flights :(

The way I use this is to run Planeplotter alongside Radarbox, and then once a week I export all the routes from FD7, and import those into the Radarbox routes table.  It's a great way of gathering route data.

Download from http://sites.google.com/site/0flightdisplay/homepage
Make sure you read the readme.txt file before attempting installation.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 01:15:05 PM

Do the owners of those sites know they are getting flight information from them?
It is illegal to gather information from those sites to build a third party information database - that's why we are under a paid contract with flightstats.com to get flight number/callsign information from them.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 20, 2010, 01:22:33 PM

Quote from: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 01:15:05 PM

Do the owners of those sites know they are getting flight information from them?

I don't know.  I guess Dave Reid should know since FD7 gets data from his Flight Route Lookup service, so presumably he has agreed to give free access to his service for FD7 users.  Maybe he will do the same for Radarbox users?

So far today FD7 has gathered 130+ route details for me.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 01:44:50 PM

It would be strange to know DaveReid would be giving free access to FD7 users/SBS community and don't do the same with us. Let's wait for his position.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: bratters on September 20, 2010, 01:56:21 PM

Quote from: tarbat on September 20, 2010, 01:22:33 PM

So far today FD7 has gathered 130+ route details for me.

Thanks for that Tarbat mate - really brightened up my day  :(

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: viking9 on September 20, 2010, 01:59:56 PM

Quote from: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 01:15:05 PM

Do the owners of those sites know they are getting flight information from them?
It is illegal to gather information from those sites to build a third party information database - that's why we are under a paid contract with flightstats.com to get flight number/callsign information from them.

Surely it's the fact that you are a commercial undertaking charging for the use of the database as part of the purchase price of your product that requires you to pay for the data from flightstats.com? FD7 is a free tool for users who can normally look up the information free for their own use to automate the process. As long as they do not then sell on that information they are breaking no law.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: bratters on September 20, 2010, 02:25:27 PM

Quote from: viking9 on September 20, 2010, 01:59:56 PM

FD7 is a free tool for users who can normally look up the information free for their own use to automate the process. As long as they do not then sell on that information they are breaking no law.

Does that mean that a linkup between Airnav and FD - similar to that between FD and PP (& SBS apparently) - could provide us quite legally with the same free data that Tarbat is accessing via PP?

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 20, 2010, 02:39:53 PM

Quote from: bratters on September 20, 2010, 02:25:27 PM

Does that mean that a linkup between Airnav and FD - similar to that between FD and PP (& SBS apparently) - could provide us quite legally with the same free data that Tarbat is accessing via PP?

I would think so.   FD7 is free to use with SBS-1.  Maybe Airnav could do a deal with Allan Bird to further develop FD7 to work with Radarbox.  After all, aren't all SBS-1 addons meant to work with Radarbox ;-)

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: bratters on September 20, 2010, 02:59:38 PM

Well, it sounds like it could be a step in the right direction.

We would still face the question of getting the data into our individual databases -which could be a challenge for the somewhat PC-daft amongst us.

We do need to do something about routes and I also think we must try to avoid politics,  fingerpointing and back-biting which is totally counter-productive.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 20, 2010, 03:24:43 PM

Turns out that FD7 can be used directly with Radarbox, no need to use Planeplotter.

1. Create an almost empty SBS-1 Basestation database, and put it in any folder you like.  I've got mine in the Radarbox folder.  It contains ONE aircraft record, for Aircraft ID = zero.  This is needed since all port 30003 output from Radarbox assigns an Aircraft ID of zero.

2. Configure FD7 to use SBS-1.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5008796438_1ffa04dd4a_t_d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarbat/5008796438/sizes/o/in/photostream/)

3. Once a week export the routes from FD7 and import them into your routes table.

Simples........

EDIT:  Looks like Autopopulate doesn't work using this method :(

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 03:31:42 PM

This is an interesting discussion and we consider all the points.

"FD7 is a free tool for users who can normally look up the information free for their own use to automate the process. As long as they do not then sell on that information they are breaking no law."

This is false. The use of automatic programmed robots to gather data from other sites is totally illegal.

Let's first wait for DaveReid's answer to:
"It would be strange to know DaveReid would be giving free access to FD7 users/SBS community and don't do the same with us."

After that we will continue our discussion.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: DaveReid on September 20, 2010, 04:22:42 PM

Quote from: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 03:31:42 PM

Let's first wait for DaveReid's answer to:
"It would be strange to know DaveReid would be giving free access to FD7 users/SBS community and don't do the same with us."

After that we will continue our discussion.

  <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
- <Flight>
  <FlightNumber>SHT9J</FlightNumber>
  <Callsign>Shuttle 9J</Callsign>
- <Leg>
- <Origin>
  <ICAOCode>EGPH</ICAOCode>
  <IATACode>EDI</IATACode>
  <AirportName>EDINBURGH/TURNHOUSE</AirportName>
  <Country>UNITED KINGDOM</Country>
  </Origin>
- <Destination>
  <ICAOCode>EGLL</ICAOCode>
  <IATACode>LHR</IATACode>
  <AirportName>LONDON/HEATHROW</AirportName>
  <Country>UNITED KINGDOM</Country>
  </Destination>
  <GCDistanceNM>288</GCDistanceNM>
  </Leg>
  </Flight>

Source: www.flightroutelookup.com

This information is hereby placed in the public domain and may be freely used without attribution by any individual or ORGANISATION.

AirNav, if you'd like to tell me what part of that statement you don't understand, I'd be delighted to explain it to you.

Having said that, don't you dare try to pass the buck to me, or indeed to any other third party, for the abysmal quality of your flight routes database and the failure of your "fix". 

We are your customers, you aren't ours.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 04:32:19 PM

Dave we are just asking the following:
1- Are you providing free flight data to the FD7 application? Y/N?
2- Are you able to provide such flight data to our community too?
3- If yes how can we access your flight data script (the same way FD7 does)?

Simple questions, simple answers expected.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: DaveReid on September 20, 2010, 04:44:18 PM

Quote from: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 04:32:19 PM

Simple questions, simple answers expected.

Perhaps I could get an answer first to the question I asked you over a month ago, and on other occasions since ?

You know the one I mean, of course.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 04:50:20 PM

Dave please don't try to be sarcastic one more time.

Quite simple: are you providing route information to the Flight Display application (SBS community) for free? Are you able to do the same with the RadarBox community?

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: DaveReid on September 20, 2010, 04:56:38 PM

Quote from: DaveReid on August 18, 2010, 09:28:50 AM

I would assume (that word again!) that in the same way that new routes can be identified, so the routing for flights already in the database can be validated each time the same callsign is subsequently picked up on approach or climbout.

Perhaps, now that the system is fully operational, AirNav could explain a bit more about how it works to reassure our readers.

How exactly does asking a question like that, and expecting an answer, equate to sarcasm ?

Does that mean your questions are equally "sarcastic" too, then ?

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 05:24:11 PM

Please answer the questions below as our community would like to know about them.

1- Are you providing free flight data to the FD7 application? Y/N?
2- Are you able to provide such flight data to our community too?
3- If yes how can we access your flight data script (the same way FD7 does)?

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: Bob SEN on September 20, 2010, 05:37:42 PM

Quote from: bratters on September 20, 2010, 02:59:38 PM

We do need to do something about routes and I also think we must try to avoid politics,  fingerpointing and back-biting which is totally counter-productive.

Hear hear............................ I dont comment on it normally, but there does seem to be a fair bit of it going on re: this subject............

regards

Bob

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 05:39:55 PM

We understand it and we want to avoid at maximum these kind of discussions on our forum. Anyway there are situation that need to be clarified. That's why we keep waiting for DaveReid answers.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 20, 2010, 05:51:16 PM

Quote from: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 03:31:42 PM

The use of automatic programmed robots to gather data from other sites is totally illegal.

Well, in the case of Dave Reid's FRL service, he publishes the interface that anyone can use to get route information from his database.  It's documented at http://www.flightroutelookup.com/FlightRoute/FlightLookup.wso?op=FlightLookup

All you need is an allocated UserName from Dave.  I note that FD7 uses "tester" as it's UserName.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 05:54:44 PM

Ok but we need Dave's permission to do so. Dave do you give AirNav Systems permission to retrieve flight route data from your server and populate our central database for the benefit of the RadarBox community?

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: flightinair on September 20, 2010, 09:29:57 PM

Quote from: AirNav Development on September 20, 2010, 05:54:44 PM

Ok but we need Dave's permission to do so. Dave do you give AirNav Systems permission to retrieve flight route data from your server and populate our central database for the benefit of the RadarBox community?

Dave is thinking boys thinking.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 21, 2010, 07:01:24 AM

Has anyone worked out how to get auto-populate working in FD7 when using it with Radarbox.  I only ever get the first aircraft auto-populating, and then nothing.

I wonder if it's anything to do with port 30003 always outputting records with Field 6: FlightID always set to zero.  Airnav, any chance of changing port 30003 output to provide an incremented Field 6 so that SBS-1 addons work properly?

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 22, 2010, 10:07:33 AM

Thought I would see how reliable FD7 was in retrieving routes.  Tested over a period of one hour, I clicked on every aircraft to trigger a route lookup in FD7.

Of the 41 aircraft that had a Flight ID, only 23 were successful in retrieving route details.  That's a success rate of only 56%.  I think this illustrates the problem we have with route lookups.  Even using FIVE different route lookup sites, even FD7 can only achieve a 56% success rate.

Flight ID   From   To
AAAAAAAA      
  ACA850   CYYC   EGLL
  ACA898   CYEG   EGLL
  AF3419      
  BEE6CM      
  BMA673   EGPD   EGLL
 BMR683V      
  CCPW0O      
  COA123   EKCH   KEWR
   CWL91      
  DAL233   EHAM   KSEA
  DAL259   EHAM   KMSP
  DAL261   EHAM   KPDX
    DAL8   KIAH   OMDB
  DLH456   EDDF   KLAX
  EZE32F   EGNT   EGPD
  EZY153   EGGW   EGPE
 EZY94EG      
   GFRAL      
   GFRAP      
   GFRAR      
  ICE502   BIKF   EHAM
  ICE520   BIKF   EDDF
  KLM669   EHAM   KDFW
 LNX47CP      
 LOG57JA      
 LOG83HB      
 LOG91DT      
   OYTWO      
   QTR52   KIAD   OTBD
  RAE556   LFPG   EGPD
 RYR84CL   EGPK   ESGP
 SAS2548   EGCC   ESSA
  SAS540   EGCC   EKCH
  SHT17Q   EGPH   EGKK
  SHT18Y      
  SHT19U      
   SHT9Z   EGPH   EGLL
  TCX69K   EGPF   CYYC
  TSO594      
  VIR20X   KSFO   EGLL

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: EK01 on September 22, 2010, 10:52:16 AM

Tarbat,

I do notice that some of the routes showing relate to alphanumeric flight numbers. Now there's an advance on the current situation straight away !

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 23, 2010, 03:20:43 PM

Did some further testing today, and out of 223 flights, FD7 returned different route details compared with Radarbox in 23 instances:

FlightId  FD7_Route   ANRB_Route
BCY174Z   EGPN-EGLC   
 BDI19C   EGPH-EGQK   
 BEE3LT   EGPE-EGBB   
BEE51PM   EGBB-EGPD   
BER7430   EDDL-KLAX   EDDM-MUVR
BMR134V   EGPD-EGSH   
 DLH451   KLAX-EDDF   KLAX-EDDM
EZE1041   EGPD-EDDH   
 EZE36X   EGGD-EGPD   
 EZE54G   EGPD-EGPO   
 EZE65L   EGPD-EGNV   
 FPG788   LIRN-LSGG   
 NJE6BR   LFRG-EHAM   
 RYN557   KRFD-EDDP   KSVN-CYQX
 RYR1LA   EGPH-GCTS   
 RYR7HJ   EIDW-LEMD   
 SHT17D   EGPH-EGKK   
  SHT9J   EGPH-EGLL   
 UAL901   EDDF-KSAN   EDDF-KSFO
 UAL907   EDDM-KSFO   EDDM-KORD-KSFO
 UAL931   EGLL-KLAX   KSFO-KLAX
 UAL939   EGLL-KSAN   EGLL-KDEN-KSAN
 UAL941   EDDF-KDEN   EDDF-KORD

Which is correct I have no way of knowing!!

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: LSZS on September 23, 2010, 04:32:22 PM

BER 7430 and DLH 451 are the FD7 Route correct

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 29, 2010, 10:09:14 AM

If anyone else is using FD7 with Radarbox, I've now discovered a way of auto-populating the routes for EVERY aircraft.  Use the "Start Tour" button in Radarbox.  This cycles round each aircraft in the list, and sends a SEL message on port 30003, triggering FD7 to do a route lookup.

Then at the end of the day, export the routes from FD7, using this query:
SELECT DISTINCT
  Routes.FlightID AS FN,
  Routes.DepICAO AS NO,
  Routes.ArrICAO AS ND,
  "" AS NV,
  substr(Routes.Posted,1,4)||substr(Routes.Posted,6,2)||substr(Routes.Posted,9,2)||"000000" AS CH
FROM
 Routes
WHERE
  (Routes.DepICAO IS NOT NULL) AND
  (Routes.ArrICAO IS NOT NULL) AND
  (Routes.DepICAO <> "") AND
  (Routes.ArrICAO <> "")

ANd import into the Radarbox routes table.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: abrad41 on September 29, 2010, 10:33:56 AM

Chris

Are you using FD7 with 32bit windows or 64bit, still got problems here.

Andy

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 29, 2010, 10:39:08 AM

Quote from: abrad41 on September 29, 2010, 10:33:56 AM

Are you using FD7 with 32bit windows or 64bit, still got problems here.

32-bit on Vista.  Note there are separate 32-bit and 64-bit versions.  What problems are you having?

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: abrad41 on September 29, 2010, 10:54:07 AM

Chris

When I install and then direct it to the folder where the sqb file is I get a error message - think it is saying that the FD7 data file is missing, I think this should be put in the same folder as the sqb file.

I did download the 64bit version as I am running windows 7 64bit.

Andy

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: tarbat on September 29, 2010, 11:13:06 AM

Have you followed the install instructions and created a "UserData" folder in the same folder that your basestation.sqb file is located?  I've put a basestation.sqb database and UserData folder in the radarbox DATA folder.

Title: Re: Flight Display 7
Post by: abrad41 on September 29, 2010, 11:26:41 AM

Thanks Chris

You are a star