AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: John Racars on June 01, 2008, 09:25:43 AM
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Hi All,
Since this morning when I started my PC my AirNav RadarBox is not giving (and recieving) any signal. In other words: it looks the box is dead.
Only the green led is burning and the blue led is flashing from time to time. The white led does not lighting anyway.
I tryed to connect another antenna but this gives no result so it looks there is nothing wrong with my antenna (connection).
Any help will be welcome. Thank you for that in advance!
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John,
Are you still getting the green "Hardware Connected" indication in the RadarBox software?
Are you still getting Network data?
Have you changed anything, USB socket, usb lead?
Are you using an adaptor to connect to the antenna plug?
Have you tried with the original RB antenna?
Have you done a PC shutdown and restart?
Just a few ideas to see what the problem might be.
Allocator
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Hi Allocator,
Thank you for your fast reaction:
Are you still getting the green "Hardware Connected" indication in the RadarBox software?
Yes
Are you still getting Network data?
Yes
Have you changed anything, USB socket, usb lead?
No, I did not
Are you using an adaptor to connect to the antenna plug?
Yes, I do
Have you tried with the original RB antenna?
Yes, I did
Have you done a PC shutdown and restart?
Yes, I did
Just a few ideas to see what the problem might be.
Thank you for any help.
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OK John,
Looks like you might need to contact support direct at [email protected]
I wondered if maybe you were using an adaptor to connect to your antenna and the adaptor was causing the problem. But if you have tried the standard antenna and you are getting no live traffic at all, then it might be the box that is the problem.
Can you still see the gold coloured centre connector in the RadarBox antenna socket?
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/2187709322_3205fe2f1d_m.jpg)
People who have had a similar fault have had a problem with the centre pin in the antenna lead, but as you have tried different antenna's then this can't be it.
Do not take your RadarBox apart to look for the problem, as this will cause problems if you have to return the box for repair or replacement.
Allocator
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Looks like you might need to contact support direct at [email protected]
Can you still see the gold coloured centre connector in the RadarBox antenna socket?
Hi Allocator,
I contacted them allready. I hope there comes a quick solution.......
The gold coloured centre connector in the RadarBox antenna socket is good to see.
Thanks again!
Kind Regards, John
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John,
I'm sorry that you are having problems, but I'm sure that support will come up with a quick solution.
All the best
Allocator
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We have replied back to you John via the support email.
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John,
What antenna are you using? My RadarBox has just failed for the second time with the same symptoms as yours. It worked OK for about 3-month with the default antenna inside my attic, I then installed an antenna outside on the roof of my house. It failed soon after and had to be sent back to AirNav for repair. When I got it back it lasted 16-days and failed again same problem.
AirNav support say that this problem has been experienced by a small number of other users. The problem seems to be caused by static voltage build-up on the antenna.
Please describe what antenna you are using. Also please tell me how long you have benn using it.
Navman
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John,
What antenna are you using? My RadarBox has just failed for the second time with the same symptoms as yours. It worked OK for about 3-month with the default antenna inside my attic, I then installed an antenna outside on the roof of my house. It failed soon after and had to be sent back to AirNav for repair. When I got it back it lasted 16-days and failed again same problem.
AirNav support say that this problem has been experienced by a small number of other users. The problem seems to be caused by static voltage build-up on the antenna.
Please describe what antenna you are using. Also please tell me how long you have benn using it.
Navman
Hi Navman,
The (outside) antenna I use was installad one week ago. It is an outside antenna placed on the chimney.
It is a WiMo GP-1090 outsideantenna "special for recieving ADS-B/Mode-S".
Cable in use is the recommended ECOFLEX 10. Length 10 m1 and connected with an adaptor to the Radarbox.
On the forum you can see the beautifull results of my reception until yesterday. You know what happend this day. A great mistery took place and made my RadarBox unfit for use.
It is under the way for repair or replace now.
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I have simile aereal en cable ... It is ok....
I expect the response from the factory to find out why the Radar Box does not have the same sensitivity of the SBS-1 ..
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Hi John,
OK on the antenna setup, I was interested to know if your antenna was enclosed in a plastic tube which I know the WIMO GP-1090 is. My antenna is of open construction similar to the Kinetic BS1100.
My RadarBox is away for repair now, as it has failed twice since I installed the antenna on my chimney I am worried that I will fail again when I get it back.
There seems to be some kind of problem with static voltage build-up on the antenna that needs to be addressed. If this is the case then AirNav need to come up with a fix.
I will keep watching this thread and keep you informed what happens this end.
Navman
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"There seems to be some kind of problem with static voltage build-up on the antenna that needs to be addressed. If this is the case then AirNav need to come up with a fix."
Static build up can occur on any type of antenna. The RadarBox is designed to take fluctuations in voltage coming down through the antenna however it has a certain limit where beyond it can be damaged (as like any receiver)
From what we know so far we only have few customers who have this issue and it seems it is repeated, this would indicate not a fault in the RadarBox but either a smilar setup which is causing damage or a specfic external device.
We are investigating the cause.
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Goede middag Hans,
you might have noticed some very heavy thunderstorms at about the time your RB quit service. (We’don’t live too far apart as you know well, thus my suggestion concerning the above)
I (but it’s not only me of course) would recommend to remove the outside antenna from your RB’s input if there is thunderstorm activities in your vicinity, to prevent static build up on the antenna causing harm to the receivers RF (front end) input circuit.
Good afternoon AirNav,
I have been involved in RF & Microwave applications with a customer, that used many a certain type of our companies RF amplifiers between their “outside”- antennas and receivers. A lot of those amplifiers failed from time to time, and careful investigation by R&D found “static” to be the reason for destroying their input hybrid. That could be clearly identified by using extreme microscopic magnification, and one could easily trace the discharge’s “foot print”. A redesign of the amplifier’s input circuitery finally solved the problem. (the mentioned hybrid had been replaced by another type, that prooved to withstand static at least to an extent, that we did not get any complains from the mentioned customer no more. (.............regarding his amplifier's problems, there were [a lot] others of course]).
Karl
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Since my RadarBox failed the first time I have been very careful to disconnect the antenna when RB is not in use. I always short circuit the centre of the coaxial to ground to discharge any static before reconnecting it to the RB.
On both days when my RB failed there were no thunder storms in the vicinity of the UK as far as I know. However, it was very windy so perhaps the air movement past the antenna caused the static build-up maybe.
Navman
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you might have noticed some very heavy thunderstorms at about the time your RB quit service. (We’don’t live too far apart as you know well, thus my suggestion concerning the above)
Hallo Karl, Guten Abend!
Yes, that is a verry good tip. Thank you for that and I hope this helps! I will do so when I get a good working RadarBox back.
Vielen dank für das "mit-denken".
Best Regards / Viele Grüßen aus die Niederlanden, Hans
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John and Navman,
However, it was very windy so perhaps the air movement past the antenna caused the static build-up maybe.
Absolutely right, and if even the air appears to be "dry" due to low humidity, this will increase
risk and amount of static-build up. On all antennas as AirNav states correctly, and not only on antennas of course, as you might verify when you leave your car, and its static build up discharges through your body, as soon as you touch the car's door in order to close it.
I asked John already, if he "grounded" the antennas pole to earth, and will discuss with him via PM tomorrow on that. Did you Navman ? because this might reduce the risk of "static" to meet the receivers input, but drain to earth / ground instead of.
Kind regards
Karl
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Also "undercooled" rain and hail can be the cause of a heavy static build up especially with vertical antennas in such way that reception becomes impossible. With shorter VHF and UHF antennas it is less noticeable but still can statics load the antenna.
This happens especilally when that rain or hail falls in the close neighborhood of the antenna and not directly on the antenna.
Rgds
Dan.
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Hi Karl and Dan
My antenna pole is not directly grounded to earth but the coaxial cable from the antenna is connected to ground before it is connected to the RadarBox.
The coax cable from the antenna is terminated into a PL259 plug this connects to a Watson-7515 Static Discharge Device which in turn connects to the RadarBox via a short length of low loss coax with an SMA plug into the RB.
The Watson-7515 static discharge device outer casing is grounded to a good earth connection so this effectively grounds the antenna pole via the coax. Having said that the Watson-7515 is nothing more than a straight through connector with nothing connected to the inner of the coax to discharge any static on the active element of the antenna.
I think that I should replace the 7515 Static Discharge Device with one that incorporates a gas discharge fuse which would shunt any build-up on the inner of the coax.
Do you think that this would give adequate protection for the RadarBox?
Navman
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Hi Navman, Dan, John,
I'd prever to ground the antenna's pole rather than the receiver's end of its coaxial feeder, to bleed possible static-build at its "place of origin", so that it might not travel down the feeder, possibly acting via cable capacities between its inner conductor and outer shielding.
Concerning the static discharge protectors: up to my knowledge, they are more thought to act as a countermeasure against those static build-ups, that one will find during lightning strikes in the very close vicinity. The one you're talking about Navman is a " mechanical spark gap", and static build ups, that result apart from lightning strikes probably will not force it to "fire", but reach a receiver's sensitve front end circuit, there causing possible harm. Some of them are fuse protected, but before the fuse "goes", the receivers front end might have "gone". I doubt, that "gas filled" dischargers will do better regarding the situation we are talkink about. The problem with the customer that I mentioned when I joined Johns posting, at that time, and as already told, had been solved by a redesign of the input circuitery, finally by selecting a hybrid component, whose "self protection" against "static" made it more "immun". (Resulting in no more complains on that issue anymore)
So far its all suggestions we are talking about. Let's see, what answer AirNav is coming out with on this phenomena.
Kind regards,
Karl
P.S.: May I kindly ask all readers to "cross fingers" for me: I've never in my (long) live taken a mains plug out of the wall during thunderstorm activities overhad, and (don't trust my theories above !!!) I never removed any antenna coax from any of my "receivers" regarding the same scenario.
But: I HAVE CONNECTED MY VIRTUAL RADARS ANTENNA POLE TO EARTH !!!
K.
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Hi Flightchecker,
I agree with everything that you say. Unfortunately it is not practicable for me to ground the antenna pole to earth as my house is 3-floors high and I would need a very long flat copper earthing tape connected to a spike in the ground to do this effectively.
I have been a Ham Radio operator for 28 years and never had any static problem with my equipment, I have another antenna located about 4-metres away from the RB antenna for my scanners no problems.
I certainly don’t want to go back to the antenna in the attic for the RB as reception was very poor in comparison to the one the chimney.
As you say I think that we need to wait and see what the Tech Guy’s at AirNav come up with. I’m sure that they will find a solution to this problem.
Navman
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What I wonder is, if this problem with the radarbox also occurs when we use a pre-amplifier, because I see that all the problems occure with installations without a pre-amplifier. Would a pre-amplifier react as some kind of buffer for the static electricity if the input of the pre-amplifier is not so critical as the input of the radarbox? Just wondering.
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As you say I think that we need to wait and see what the Tech Guy’s at AirNav come up with. I’m sure that they will find a solution to this problem.
Agree Navman, and if yes, we’d encourage AirNav to please come up with some technical details on that too.
What I wonder is, if this problem with the radarbox also occurs when we use a pre-amplifier, because I see that all the problems occure with installations without a pre-amplifier. Would a pre-amplifier react as some kind of buffer for the static electricity? Just wondering.
Good question belgianguy, and it makes sense at a first glance, but build-ups might reach the receiver via the outer conducter (shielding) of the feeder cable. Lots of theories so far, again: AirNav will “tell the truth”.
Had a discussion with one of my former customers this morning on the subject it is about, and he reminded me, that it prooved to be good practice placing a “bleed resistor” between the inner and outer conducter at the antennas feed end. If its value is about 50 to 100K (and preferable even carbon- (or another "low inductivity") type, it will create only a marginal influence on the low (50Ohms) Antenna- / feeder- / receiver impedance, but , by its name, “bleed” static build-up to ground /earth, assuming, the latter provided!!!.
Just another idea, lets wait for AirNavs answer.
Karl
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Hi WiMo / Ekki, Do you read?
You might be the one to have the answer for all of the above ???
Karl
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I have a Solid State Electronics 1090SJ Mk 2 antenna which is DC grounded . I have checked both the Wimo GP-1090 and the BS1100 and both are open circuit with no ESD protection. The SSE antenna is connected to a Kuhne LNA 1090 A TM preamp also with ESD protection for the preamp frontend.
http://www.ssejim.co.uk/sseads1090sj.htm (http://www.ssejim.co.uk/sseads1090sj.htm)
http://www.kuhne-electronic.de/en/shop/143_Vorverstaerker/article:342_KU_LNA_1090_A_TM (http://www.kuhne-electronic.de/en/shop/143_Vorverstaerker/article:342_KU_LNA_1090_A_TM)
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Sounds good, Cumulus, sounds very good.
I myself, using the Wimo 1090GP since about one and a half year: NO complains at all so far.
Karl
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Hi belgianguy,
Would a pre-amplifier react as some kind of buffer for the static electricity if the input of the pre-amplifier is not so critical as the input of the radarbox? Just wondering.
(your question)
had another discussion with an earlier customer of mine this afternoon, and he indeed used
many of "victim type amplifiers " (my best best translation of the german expression for this solution) between his antenna and receiver feeders. They indeed were "sacrificed" if it came to Electro Static Discharges. Relatively "simple" amplifier modules, that only served for the purpose discussed above. Discharge travelling on the outer conductor / shielding was taken care of by grounding the outer conducter at the receivers input connector. Unfortunatly in "case of a case", the "victim" was gone. Probably not a satisfying "solution" for us hobby guys.
I think we (I!) definitly should stop theories now and here, as there have been sufficient.
AirNav will tell us more.
Karl
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My RB has now been repaired by Waters & Stanton; I sent the email below to AirNav support. Their reply is not very helpful.
Do I go-ahead and connect it to the outside antenna and risk another failure?
Email to AirNav support:
My RB is being dispatched back to me tomorrow from Waters & Stanton after being repaired for the second time. From reading on the forum there certainly seems to be a problem with static build-up on outside antennas reported by some users causing such failures. I am concerned that it will fail again if I connect it to the outside antenna.
Can you tell me if anything has been done to my RB to prevent further failures and are here any precautions that I can take here to prevent this happening again?
Reply from AirNav Support:
Thanks for your email.
The RadarBox parts are being tested further and sent back to us. However the RadarBox does come with static protection however the damage we are seeing usually shows a continual discharge.
I would suggest making sure nothing is causing your antenna to get this unusual charge.
What is very important so far is that we see nothing wrong with RadarBox, it does have protection but in these cases its facing a high voltage which is beyond normal conditions.
Please do not hesitate to contact us if we can be of any further assistance.
Navman
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The important part of the message is that its still being tested and that so far nothing has been found pointing the blame at the RadarBox. (if we had kept hold of it and tested you would have emailed as you did requesting a return asp)
We did suggest did you early on to use it with the default antenna untill we pinpoint the cause.
All in we have over 1,000+ RadarBoxes across the world now and we have only had a handful of repeat cases where this issue has come up. Therefore this does point to either weather, certain antenna setup, accidental discharge. However we are trying to pinpoint it.
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AirNav,
I will run the RB on the default antenna in the attic as it was before it first failed. If you can suggest any changes that I can make to my antenna i.e. fitting a more efficient static discharge device or maybe a bleed resistor across the coax then please let me know.
I am willing to try anything that will enable me to use the outside antenna as the performance is much better than the default antenna in the attic.
Navman
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I'm still using the BS1100 external antenna, as I have since shortly after I got my RadarBox. I use the standard RB antenna when I go portable or working away from my home location.
I always unplug the antenna when I switch off the PC and when there are thunderstorms in the area. All I can say is that My RadarBox is still just as sensitive as when I got it.
Of course, it doesn't mean that it won't blow up tomorrow, but I think that it's unlikely after all this time (looking out of the window for passing thunderstorms!)
Edit: I've just checked when I ordered my RadarBox - July 2007 - has it really been almost a year, wow!
That means that its been almost a year since I stopped using my SBS-1, which I got in July 2006 - amazing!
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Hi Navman and Hans,
However the RadarBox does come with static protection however the damage we are seeing usually shows a continual discharge.
I would suggest making sure nothing is causing your antenna to get this unusual charge.
if I was you, I would ask AirNav what is ment by "a continual discharge". At least I don't t know this "term", while I know pretty well, what it is about Electro Static Discharges and Static build-ups.
Secondly, I would try to get an explaination on what are supposed to be "unusual charges" (with other words, where is the difference between "usual" and "unusual" charges) or even "charges" themselves, that you should prevent your antenna from, and by what means.
Therefore this does point to either weather, certain antenna setup, accidental
discharge. However we are trying to pinpoint it.
That's indeed an honest answer that makes sense, exept for the "accidental discharge", as again I would ask where it could result result from. (My only suggestion, the antenna is almost touching a 10 KV HI Tension line, which I doubt, has not been taken care of)
AirNav should continue to "pinpoint" this problem, That's what I would agree. There are measures of testing electronic devices regarding their "susceptibilty", which is the common expression for an instruments immunity against ESD among other external influences as strong RF fields for instance, and which is part of the specs. of "commercial" equipment.
And: Yes,
We did suggest you early on to use it with the default antenna untill we pinpoint the cause.
good suggestion, even customers might not be too glad about.
I for my part will follow this thread with very much interest.
Regards
Karl
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All,
Our Hardware team have found the following:
Usually RF circuits are very sensitive to static, when they are connected to external outdoor antennas, where the wind, thunderstorm, rf signals, contribute to generate local static energy that acumulates and can discharge trough the device. To avoid this to Happen, for those who have external antennas, a coaxial DC Block device can be used. Distributors like W&S generally have this kind of devices."
The RadarBox does have protection built in however to a certain extent. You can view the attached document to get a sense for the best protection.
Please note while cases of these are rare they can happen.
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Hi to all
I read this topic very carefully as I turn ON my WiMo antenna two days ago with excelent results.
I would like to know from comunity and AirNav Support the best recomended Static Discharge Protector model from Waters & Stanton to instal in my Wimo antena.
I suppose CA23RW is agood option as it has 'N' femeale connectors, it seems that it must be instaled only in ecoflex cable without more procedures.
The only doubt I have is where it is positioned, in the antena output (external) or in amplifier input ?
However, as I'm not an expert on this subject, I would like to know other ways to ground the antena.
It's possible to connect a wire from my antena metal base to ground imput of my external climatization box in order to reduce the risk of electrical discharge or this isn't correct ?
Any suggestion is apreciated.
Thank you.
Brgds
CA
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Hi Carlos and AirNav,
W&S's Static Discharge Protector CA23RW as far as I can judge by looking up their websites is more supposed to be what one would call a "lightning protector", that will bleed extreme static discharge as experienced during strong local thunderstoms. I doubt, that the CA23RW (as its accompaning similar devices) is designed to sense and bleed static build up beside of that mentioned before, but discussed in this thread.
And it is not at all a DC Block as refered to in AirNavs proposal. Its Specs confirm it to operate from DC to xxx Mhz / GHz, while a DC Block (which in its simplest layout is a Capacitor between a coaxial In-/output) that prevents DC to reach and (possibly) destroy a device (a receivers input for instance) if it exeeds the devices immunity against DC. It may be placed directly in front of the devices (amplifier / receiver) input.
There is a lot of DC Blocks available in the "commercial RF world", just "google" for "DC Block".
Your mastheadamplifier might as well serve as an "ESD protector", provided its immunity against the ESD is "high enough". (whatever that means) But I would not take that too serious, Carlos
Regards Karl
(We've got the same names, hav`nt we ?)
P.S.: Check this link for a "typical" DC Block and its (relativly simple) design.
http://www.rlcelectronics.com/newpdf/2006_6/BL-20A_a.pdf
Don`t care about the connectors, there's others available, your choice.
K.
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Hi Karl
In fact German Karl is the same name for Portuguese Carlos.
Thanks for your information, excelent advise, I don't want to have any problem with so expensive hardware.
I will look carefully for the suggested link during this weekend.
Many thanks and have a nice weekend.
Brgds
CA
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Hi all,
Since getting my RadarBox back from repair by Waters & Stanton on the 12 June 2008 I have been using it on the default antenna located inside my attic without problems as recommended by AirNav Support.
Over the last few weeks I have been carrying out some test on my antenna mounted outside on the chimney. The coax cable feeding the antenna is connected to ground at the receiver end thereby grounding the antenna and mast via the cable.
During a very heavy rain storm I decided to connect a voltmeter across the coax to see if I could measure any voltage build-up. I connected one test leads to the cable screen and as I connected the other lead to the inner core of the coax there was a crack and a spark about 4 mm long from the coax to the test lead.
This indicated to me that there was a large static voltage build-up (probably several thousand volts) on the antenna being caused by the rain storm. I waited a few seconds and then shorted across the cable ends with a screwdriver and again this produced a static spark. I have no doubt that this would have caused damage to the RB if connected.
I then connected a coax tee connector on the end of the coax and connected a 10K ohm resistor across the tee to bleed away the voltage before it could build up. With the resistor connected across the coax, shorting the coax produced no sparks and I could not measure any voltage. I then removed the resistor and within seconds shorting the coax again produced a spark.
This brings me to the DC blocking device as suggested by AirNav. These devices only give protection up to a few hundred volts some much less, the one mentioned by Karl works up to 100VDC. Static voltage can easily reach tens of thousands of volts. DC blockers rely on a capacitor for isolation which would breakdown if the working voltage is exceeded. The result of this would be goodbye RadarBox.
Static Discharge Protectors for example the CA23RW is not a DC blocker. It is designed to discharge static to ground when the voltage across the coax reaches 230 volts DC. This is not guaranteed to give protection to very sensitive equipment against static. It is more of a lightning protection device.
My suggestion is to use a CA23RW with a good solid ground connected to it to capture lightning strikes (not direct hits) followed by a coax tee with a 10K ohm resistor soldered into a plug connected to the tee. The tee then connected to the RadarBox. The 10K resistor across the coax will prevent the static build-up in the first place. I have tested this setup on the default antenna in the roof and the 10k resistor does not affect sensitivity.
I have been monitoring for voltage build-up across the coax from the outside antenna for a few days with this arrangement and detected nothing.
I would appreciate comments from anybody including AirNav support on this.
Jeff
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Hi Jeff, it's me again.
Excellent contribution regarding this thread, and Yes: I forgot about the "susceptibility" of "DC Blockers" rearding "ESD".
Originally they are supposed to prevent (RF/ MW) measuring- equipment and -setups (for instance) to be confronted with Dc- rather than RF Signal -components only, that sometimes happen to appear both in the applications mentioned before. And Yes: they are specified regarding their ability to withstand DC components up to a named amount, and ESD could well be harmful to them, the "capacitor" finally being the critical element.
Jeff, you won't have much success trying to measure static build ups with a common Multimeter, as the discharge, that you have noticed across your "spark gap" is "transient", while following its "naturally" behavior , and cannot be catched by a DVM, but needs a "storage oscilloscope" (for instance instead) with its ability to capture "transients".
Anyway, your "solution" sounds good, at least, if AirNav will not propose a better one.
Take care, to "design" your solution from an "RF point of view", means, choosing a "low inductance" (metal film, and as small as possible) resistor, which you probably already have done.
Another methode to overcome ESD problems would be a "DC grounded" Antenna, which will eliminate Static at its "place of origin".
I will PM you on that, Jeff
Karl
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Hi Karl,
Thanks for you comments, I have over the last few days been using a storage oscilloscope which I borrowed from work to monitor the static voltage on the coax and the bleed resistor seems to be doing a good job.
I have installed the bleed resistor inside an N-type plug so that it is completely screened. As already mentioned I have tested this arrangement on the default antenna in the attic and it seems to have no detrimental effect on the performance.
I agree that a DC grounded antenna would be a good option but my antenna was quite expensive to install so I don’t want to change it for another type.
Anybody using an external antenna (not the one included in the RadarBox package) that is DC open circuit should be aware that damage could be caused to their equipment if precautions are not taken to prevent static build-up (ESD).
Regards Jeff
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Agree Navmann,
Karl
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Hi All,
I am not a technical-specialist, so I do not exactly understand what I have to do when my RadarBox will be back from repair. Unfortunately I still do not have my RadarBox back. Here some questions I have:
Should I stop using my WiMo GP-1090 and re-use the AirNav default antenne?
Should I ground my WiMo GP-1090 so I may use this antenna again without any danger?
Should I buy a CA-23RW? And, if so, is this module compatible with my WiMo GP-1090 (and ECOFLEX 10 cableconnection) or should I buy an adaptor or so?
Thank you again in advance for your reaction(s)!
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Hi All,
Should I stop using my WiMo GP-1090 and re-use the AirNav default antenne?
Should I ground my WiMo GP-1090 so I may use this antenna again without any danger?
Hi John,
You may also consider replacing your antenna with the SSE 1090SJ mk 2 which is DC grounded with excellent peformance and at £50 + p&p an inexpensive option.
Regards,
Peter
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All
AirNav’s responds regarding this thread’s subject makes it obvious to me, that during the development of their instrument, care has been taken concerning its susceptibilty against ESD.
For me (maybe there’s other menbers of the forum too) the applied ESD test standard (Human Body Model [HBM] IEC61000-4-2 f.i. ? ) and its accompaning compliance level would be a matter of interest. Also, if the corresponding “discharges” have been applied directly to the RF Input (sma- connector) rather than to other PCB components.
Would you tell me, AirNav?
Regards
Karl
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I've checked on Google a lot of sites with DC block's and ESD's...however I still confused.
I'm not an expert on this matters as many other users, I would appreciate from Airnav Support, if possible, a recomendend ESD model to aply on ANRB as they have done with Wimo antena (the one I use) in order to buy it as soon as possible.
This is only to prevent any damage on the hardware, there's any guarantee for this kind of problems, however, the risk can be strongly reduced with an efective protection.
Comunity, please send your feedback to this sugestion.
Brgds
CA
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We will see if we can find one to promote. Please remember if you have antenna with a preamp which dcs blocks anyway (the one sold on our site does) then you do not need to worry about this.
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Hm,
does this mean, one has to worry about the pre-amp then? It faces the same "static" as does RB.
Would you say, it's got a higher "ESD robustness" as has RB ?
And: "DC - blocking", as already mentioned in earlier postings is not an answer regarding the issue it is about. Even not if achieved via a pre-amp.
Regards
Karl
P.S.: For those who are interestet a bit more in "ESD Protection", exspecially if applied for "RF receiver inputs", I have attached a link below, that covers this subject in some depth.
Similar App. Notes might be available by other producers than the one publishing this, which was found purely accidently.
http://www.eetindia.co.in/ARTICLES/2004DEC/A/2004DEC03_RFD_AN02.PDF?SOURCES=DOWNLOAD
K.
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AirNav,
How come pre-amps can stand up to static, did you not build adequate static protection into RB?
I’m surprised that you are recommending a DC-Blocker to prevent static reaching the RB. DC Blocks are intended to prevent relatively low voltage used to supply mast head amplifiers via the coax from reaching the receiver input.
If you simply block the static, eventually the static voltage will build-up to a level greater than the maximum working voltage of the DC Block and then flash across and reach the RB input.
The answer is to bleed away the static voltage from the antenna before it builds up.
Come on AirNav Tech guys you can do better than this. Give us a sensible and effective solution to this problem
Jeff
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Hi to all
Antennas like WiMo GP-1090 (I don't have this antenna or like this one) it's impossible to bring down on RB some kind of static DC or similar power.
The inside wire (antenna element), covered by this PVC (or equivalent material) does not allow the element to have a contact with air and static power.
In some cases the static power in this PVC material grounded by the metallic pole where it is supported this antenna.
The most possibilities to destroy the device from static is where the antenna is naked wire (like original RB antenna) in to heavy weather or wet environment.
Chris
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Chris,
I can assure you that coating the antenna with PVC or other insulation will not prevent static build-up. Have you ever noticed how static sparks will jump from nylon clothing or seen sparks jump from a plastic comb when you comb your hair?
I use a PVC/fibre-glass coated antenna for my Air-band Receiver and Ham Radio Equipment. I have witnessed a static spark jump across the open circuit coax plug during static rain storms exactly as my metal construction antenna for 1090 MHz.
Jeff
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Hi Jeff
In to the other side i have never in my HAM equipment some faults from coated antennas like Diamond X6000A Tribander or Watson W-7900 in to a couple transmitters connected to this antennas in all weather conditions.
I have bad static experience with HF vertical antennas like Huster 6-BTV who is the Mark V final stage eater and of course not only.
A few antenna tuner and RF linear.
Never again the coaxial connector to my equipment in difficult situation. -:)
Chris
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Hello Chris,
The static build-up on my VHF/UHF antenna has never caused any damage or other problems to my Ham Radio equipment in 25 years plus using them. This is because the equipment is “designed to withstand static from the antenna” as all radio equipment should be.
The only reason I noticed the static spark across the open circuit plug of my VHF/UHF antenna was after carrying out tests following 2 x failures of my RadarBox from static on the 1090 MHz antenna.
Jeff GW6CNS
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All I can say, and I probably said this earlier in the thread, I've used the standard RB antenna outside on the roof-light for months, the external BS1100 for even longer and the Kinetic SBS-1 standard antenna - without any problems at all. I always unplug the antenna when I swithch the PC off, or when I can hear thunder, but I've had my RadarBox for 12 months now and it's just as sensitive as when I got it.
I'm not saying that static isn't a problem, but this issue just isn't one I've experienced. I'm a radio amateur of some 25 years now, so maybe I've just been lucky with all my antenna's and radio gear. I've never had any arcing or sparking when connecting antenna's.
Although we need to be aware of static and the problems it might cause RadarBox, I do think that we have to keep all this in proportion. Do we have a list of the RB units that have had this problem, how many units are we talking about, are the serial numbers in the same range. Might this be a component batch problem rather than a design issue? All things to consider before we go down the "doom and gloom" route I think.
Oh.... there's a big black cloud over here - no thunder though :-)
Allocator
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Hi all,
Firstly some of these posts are getting out of hand now and we covered the point and then again people (same people) are asking the same question over and over.
1.) This issue has affected a handful out of 1000+ customers. So put that into perspective first. Even so with the low amount we have been investigating. Furthermore they have only occured using external antennas.
2.) The RadarBox does have protection but what you are missing is that the receiver for these ADS-B pluses has to be very sensitive. There has to be a balance.
3.) Preamps - A pre-amp can actually inject DC on the coaxial cable. That's why users should install also a DC Bias Injector near the power supply to send the voltage upwards to the pre-amp. These DC Bias Injectors don't let DC voltage to get into radarbox. It is similar to receiving any kind of DC voltage by means of static electricity produced by the wind or thunderstorms.
Number 3 is better explained in the attached that was posted earlier in this topic.
In final words, the RadarBox is fine and nothing has been found pointing the blame at that. We have suggested what our hardware guys have found. If you think there may be a better solution then we are all ears and happy to listen.
BUT do not again point the blame back at the RadarBox as we have spent weeks testing and it and confirming that is not the case.
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Airnav Support, thanks for your post, I'm clarified.
After your explanation I understand the way things work, a simple language for a non expert person is important to clarify doubts.
Thanks to all other members for support. I will keep my actual configuration (ANRB + Wimo antena + Preamp + DC Bias injector).
Brgds
CA
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A small note from the development team: we are reading this topic for a few days now and we would like to note (adding to our support mention) that RadarBox is now being used by more than 1500 customers and this static problem has been reported by not more than 10.
It is also quite strange to see that forum members well known for working for our competition have been checking this topic and the identities of the users writing on it almost daily.
It is widely known that due to the lack of arguments from the technical/quality point of view, our competition is, always, trying to give the idea that the RadarBox product is weak and the software is unstable. Unfortunately the reality shows a completely opposite opinion from ADS-B users: RadarBox is now selling 200+ units per month, we have some new projects rolling and we intend to reach the mark of 5000 users quite soon.
To finish we have received some posts on our support giving the idea that AirNav is going the same way as our competition: promising features to get sales and never releasing them - and dedicate all our time to professional users.
To these ones we are happy to announce that:
- V1.6 beta testing will start later this week;
- ShipTrax release will happen in Aug/Sep;
- Expect an important announcement to all Airlines and Airports that want a professional real-time flight tracking solution available.
So expect the best from our company: unlike companies that prefer to play hidden games, we will always, ALWAYS, be totally honest with our users. We are here for you to be happy and will do everything to achieve that.
So keep the suggestions coming and be sure we will always work to meet all our users needs.
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It is also quite strange to see that forum members well known for working for our competition have been checking this topic and the identities of the users writing on it almost daily.
Agree, AirNav, I certainly belong to those "members writing almost daily" that you're adressing above, BUT I'm certainly not "WORKING FOR THE COMPETION". I'd like to make this clear. Not to AirNav, but to all of the other readers. It is purely a matter of interest, and at least in the beginning of this thread, I thought I was able to convince AirNav that there was a need to help their customers getting around the issue, it is about. But, if there have been answers at all from AirNav's side, they would not solve the problem "at its roots", even not very professional, as one would expect by a producer of RF Equipment.
I feel free to say, that I can judge, what I'm talking about, I've simply got some technical background on it. Why don't you Airnav feel free to for instance answer my question regarding
the ESD test standard applied during the RB's development / production.
Don't you think, this would convince customers more than those "proposals", that finally leaves at least some of them "in the rain", if they suffer problems with antennas, others than the internal one coming with RB.
Have a look at John Racars's (the originator of this thread) questions in his last posting: none of them has been answered by AirNav. You'd better do, instead of claiming "competiton at work", which, at least in my opinion, is kind of distraction regarding the subject.
And yes, forgot to mention: I do have a problem in so far, as I recommended WiMo's GP1090 to
John. (mine working since more than two years meanwhile, and without any complains of course) No way to make friends, as you will agree.
Karl
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I think it highly unlikely that the "ESD test standard applied during the RB's development / production" are going to make a blind bit of difference to the average RadarBox user - me included.
I'm afraid, in my opinion, that this thread is attempting to create a problem where one doesn't exist. Being a simple sort of bloke, I look at it this way:
- Is there a major problem with the design and operation of the RadarBox hardware - no
- Is there a major problem with the design and operation of the RadarBox software - no
- Is AirNav providing advice and guidance to RadarBox users and acting quickly to resolve any actual (not perceived) problems that occur - yes
- Have I had any failures with my RadarBox hardware operating it almost non-stop at a number of mobile and fixed locations, using both standard and non-standard internal and external antenna's - no
So, give it a rest chaps - I've had enough of this topic. AirNav, unlike the competing product forum, don't lock threads at the slightest provocation. Nor do they delete threads from posters who make the slightest criticism of their product. However, I think that they would be well justified in locking this thread!
Allocator
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Karl,
You seem to be totally wrong on a few points. So let me clarify them to you:
1.) We did not associate you with the competitors but they have been involved in firing this topic to where it is now.
2.) There have been answers from us including a diagram showing the issue and how to rectify it. Very silly to say we have not replied at all.
3.) You seem to think that we need to answer every question you ask us regarding detailed specs to how the RadarBox was produced and made and its certifications etc. We do not have provide this detail of information to protect our design. As stated before in various times it is protected and we ensure it followed guidelines.
(As mentioned in the earlier post if this was not the case we would have loads of RBs being returned with issues, this is NOT the case)
4.) Johns Question was answered by our various posts and diagram. This is a forum and there are lots of posts everywhere, we do not reply to everyone individually. If you want individual replies email support. This forum is not a support forum for us. We are here though because we are happy to help.
IMPORTANT:
Before you post, please have a think whether you can ask these questions to another company and actually get a reply. You should be thankful that we are happy to reply to these posts and help in this way. As other companies would either ignore or lock the posts.
At the end of the day, a very small amount of RadarBoxes have been affected when using external antenna (not our antenna or the one we sell on our site). As we said is likely to be caused by static however please note a few customers who had this issue have also emailed to say there was storm activity nearby or unusual weather conditions.
I would however like to ask the question to you customers, what do you think we should do considering the RadarBox has no fault?
I think you will realise we don't need to do anything except advise people that when purchasing external antennas to be wary of static and lightning (However this is common sense to all sensitive receivers). What’s more interesting is we have actually fixed all the RBs sent to us without saying this is not covered in the warranty as strictly speaking this isn't, this is because we care about the customers and service.
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Hi All
as Allocator proposes: "let's give it a rest", (and see what the future will do regarding this subject [my "add-on"]).
"Waves are getting higher" during discussion sometimes, and seems they have done during the one it is about, which I'm involved in though not affected myself, just trying to help one ore the other forum member that is less experienced in a discussion leading into technical detail.
Let's look at it this way,
Karl
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OK I agree,
I think that we have all kicked this problem around enough now. AirNav have shown great patience and could have easily pulled the plug on this thread.
I want to say that although I have had two failures of my RB that point to static from my outside antenna. I still remain very impressed with the performance my RadarBox. The few small bugs in the software I can live with, not a problem for me.
I will continue testing my solution to static as already described using a CA23RW Static Discharge Protector together with a Bleed Resistor connected across the coax.
I hope that it will be third time lucky and I have no further problems.
Jeff
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I will continue testing my solution to static as already described using a CA23RW Static Discharge Protector together with a Bleed Resistor connected across the coax.
Hi Jeff,
As No-Technican (normaly I only interested to see the aircrafts over my screen without anymore) please tell me how I should connect all this. It is all ACABADABRA for me as "end-user" of the RadarBox.
I think, whenever my RadarBox is back from repear, I will not connect my outside antenne anymore. Reading the reaction from Support where they say that there are sold 5000+ RB in between and there are 40 cases of "our" problem, there must be 4960 users using the default antenna only....
It looks to me that on all places of the world it can be windy from time to time and there will be thunderstorms everywhere aswell. So this are not special weatherconditions for the UK, Germany or the Netherlands only.
Thank you and I hope your problems are solved verry soon. Please, if so, any advice will be welcom!
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John,
Have you read my post above?
I only use the standard RB antenna when I am using RB away from home. My normal antenna is the BS1100 external antenna originally used with my SBS-1. I'm sure that there are many other RB users with external antenna's.
Before I started using this antenna, my RB antenna was outside on the Velux window in all weathers! I don't know where you got the figure of 40 problems - AirNav quoted 10 in their earlier email.
I hope you get your RadarBox back soon, we miss your screenshots :-)
All the best
Allocator
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Ok, John crossed the line in ignoring what we have said repeatedly (we have edited his post as well) and making up numbers. I would go back and read our posts again as we clarified it clearly. This topic is now locked.
We are happy for you to continue under another topic regarding ways to reduce static using different products. Thanks