AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: Fenris on December 30, 2008, 12:17:20 AM
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As I have not yet purchased a Radarbox, I have a question about the effects seen where live aircraft reception and 5 minute delayed reception meet.
Imagine the case where an aircraft is approaching you, but is still below the radio horizon so that you receive it's transponder via a server-delivered network connection. As the aircraft continues and comes above the radio horizon, suddenly its signal reaches detection threshold and it becomes a live reception signal. Does it suddenly jump forwards on its track, as positional reality is suddenly applied? And does a similar effect occur in reverse? Where a live aircraft goes out of range and appears as a network-supplied track, and hence suddenly seems to regress 5 minutes into the past and its position now appears in the area covered by live reception despite it already having travelled the same track for real 5 minutes ago?
I'm not totally convinced by this 5 minute delay for network traffic, I'd rather like to understand the rationale behind it. I know it's claimed to be for security reasons, but I can see that if someone has a Radarbox within live range of an airport then that argument can't apply and surely people with ill intentions are more dangerous at short range than they can be at much longer ranges?
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The network works well and the delay also works as explained:
Aircraft from local to network:
Aircraft is picked up locally and then you loose reception with it. The software remembers that you have picked up this aircraft and its not displayed on the network for you untill it passes the point you last lost reception (uses timestamps and other programing means) . In theory you can track the aircraft just after it left your reception 5 minutes later.
Aircraft from network to local:
Aircraft is shown on the network as its not been picked up locally yet. As soon as its picked up locally that local data is more important and it shows the local data. In theory as the network data is 5 minutes delayed there is a jump.
We won't go into why the delay is there as that topic has been discussed endsley and a quick search of the forum will bring results on that for you.
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I have to say that I've NEVER experienced a mere 5 minutes in the transition, it's usually 20 minutes to half an hour. I've made a point of watching the progress of specific aircraft between France and adjoining countries (where there appears to be ample network coverage) in both directions, and targets just disappear for ages. That's one reason why I've been keen on reasonably accurate locations of active network members at any particular time, to assist in the rationale of why many targets are "invisible" for so long.
I don't doubt, though, that other users aren't necessarily experiencing these long disappearances. It's probably a combination of flight level, and the location of other contributors that have a direct effect on my experiences.
I'd be interested to know what others have found.
DC
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One question I have about network aircraft is about timeouts. For example, the network aircraft pictured below stayed on my map for about 10 minutes, always at the same altitude and speed. It wasn't moving. Now, my timeouts are:
MyFlights - 20 / 80 seconds
Network - 35 / 65 seconds
So, why didn't the aircraft timeout? Or do the timeout settings for the user who is actually receiving the aircraft also have an effect? So, if the user who was receiving this aircraft had very high local timeouts, would the aircraft still appear on the network many minutes after the user had lost reception?
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DC,
If you are loosing aircraft for 30 minutes, at an average 450 mph, then you are talking about loosing aircraft for 225 miles - surely this isn't what you mean?
I have both live and Network traffic going through my overhead all day long, as I'm about 30 miles south of WAL on a very busy route. I can't say that I honestly even notice the transition between Network/live/Network, although when I was involved in beta testing in the very early days, I did suggest a "tweak" in the priorities to make sure that live traffic always had a higher preference when it came to displaying aircraft. This was done and improved matters a great deal.
Fenris,
Like you, I had serious doubts about the 5 minute delay in Network traffic when I heard about it first. I bought an SBS-1 over two and a half years ago on the promise of the MapModeS Kinetic network that promised all live data - this was never released and will never be released due to legal and technical problems. With regard to the RadarBox Network delay, I argued that the RadarBox live traffic should be delayed by 5 minutes too so that all traffic showed in the correct position relative to each other. Fortunately, AirNav didn't listen to me and stuck to the live live traffic and the 5 minute delayed Network traffic.
Generally, when you are watching Network traffic, it's going to be far enough away for the delay to be insignificant. With live coverage going out to at least 150 miles and often 200 to 250 miles, then anything inside this at a reasonable height is going to be plotted as live anyway.
The "5 minute delay" is all that's keeping "big brother" off our backs at the moment, as it's an (unwritten?) internationally accepted security requirement. About 2 years ago, one of the UK tabloid newspapers did a double page scare story showing the SBS-1, a terrorist with an RPG and a nice picture of an airliner. Fortunately, nothing came of this, but in the current climate of fear, it wouldn't take much for us all loose the enjoyment we're having following aircraft by Mode S. Whatever you do, don't try to apply logic to the 5 minute delay argument :-(
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Hi DC
I have been checking this out and have found it is 5 mins but if the aircraft is switching between local and network I need to disable local flights otherwise it does not show up on Network 5 mins later.
I hope this makes sense?
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Blackthorn, out of interest, what are your timeout settings?
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Hi Tarbat
60 secs
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Blackthorn, is that:
MyFlights - 60 / 60 seconds
Network - 60 / 60 seconds
I'm trying to establish what effect (if any) timeout settings have on transitions from/to network/local.
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Tarbat - as the other person in NE Scotland (!) I have the suspicion that your aircraft is one of mine. I also suspect that you are correct in your assumption about timeout times. Myflights is 300 / 1440 and Network is 120 / 1200 to, er, mmh, attempt to emulate the long trail lines available on the alternative system -which I rather like (and incidentally something I requested as an upgrade many revisions ago).
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OK, here's a transition from the Network to Live - about a 10 mile "jump"? Note the times on the screen shots.
I'm using:
30 and 60 Live
90 and 180 Network
The subject aircraft is EZY38CR in the Isle of Man region. Click the links below the pictures for full size.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/3149567095_afa0296a36_m.jpg)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/3149567095_612676c391_o.jpg
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3127/3150407136_d701bf8c81_m.jpg)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3127/3150407136_363cc5108b_o.jpg
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3100/3149580445_4ab962abd6_m.jpg)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3100/3149580445_da2d8389c2_o.jpg
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Thanks Bill. I suspect that your 300s + 1440s (total of 1740s) on local explains why the aircraft stayed static on my map.
Airnav, surely this is a bug. Just because the local user chooses to have a long timeout on their local traffic, that shouldn't mean that I also have that long timout when I receive the aircraft on the network. Surely my own Network Timeout settings should take precedent.
Could this also explain some of the other anomolies being reported in this thread?
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Blackthorn, is that:
MyFlights - 60 / 60 seconds
Network - 60 / 60 seconds
I'm trying to establish what effect (if any) timeout settings have on transitions from/to network/local.
Myflights 60/60
Network 90/180
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Thanks Blackthorn. I think that rules out timeouts as the cause of the problem you're seeing.
Although I can't say I've ever had to disable local flights when an aircraft transitions from local to network. And I see a lot of aircraft that go from local to network.
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Thanks Blackthorn. I think that rules out timeouts as the cause of the problem you're seeing.
Although I can't say I've ever had to disable local flights when an aircraft transitions from local to network. And I see a lot of aircraft that go from local to network.
I have just tracked flight COA46 Houston-Schipol and I had to switch off local for it to reappear on Network.
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Blackthorn, just to check, you are waiting at least 5 minutes for it to appear on the network? When my local aircraft transition to network, it normally takes 5-6 minutes for the aircraft to appear. There's the 5 minute delay, and then the network only updates every minute.
And then there's the 2 minutes of local timout in your settings.
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No if I don't switch of local it does not reappear on the Network so if I am tracking a flight and I lose it I then disable local flights wait approx five minutes and up it pops.
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There might just be something in this. Following my EZY38CR from live to Network, it disappeared from live at 1020 UTC and by 1029 it hadn't reappeared on the Network. I deselected Process Hardware Flights and it appeared as a Network track - of course, it might have reappeared anyway without switching off Process Hardware - who's to know!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/3149608483_fea0eba67a_m.jpg)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/3149608483_c0d9294419_o.jpg
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/3150441072_3cc223947e_m.jpg)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/3150441072_fdaa043496_o.jpg
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Allocator, I've seen that effect also. I suspect that you're picking up your own traffic echoed back on the network, delayed 5 minutes. I tried this with an aircraft on approach to Aberdeen. By switching local on and off, I could get the aircraft's altitude to change even though the aircraft remained in exactly the same position. I put this down to the different QNH settings for my location vs. the location of the other user receiving this aircraft.
Turning ON local traffic forces RB to use the other users sharing. Turning OFF local traffic allows RB to use my 5-minuted delayed feed to echo back onto my own map. With a couple of minutes of timeout also factored in. If that makes sense.
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In the case of the COA I tracked I lost it on local overhead Grimsby (Max range for me), I switched off local and switched it back on 6 mins later it reappear on network just East of Grimsby and I tracked it all the way to Schipol where it has just landed.
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In the case of the COA I tracked I lost it on local overhead Grimsby (Max range for me), I switched off local and switched it back on 6 mins later it reappear on network just East of Grimsby and I tracked it all the way to Schipol where it has just landed.
The true test is to just leave Hardware Processing on and wait until the aircraft appears on the Network - 6 minutes is just too close to the 5 minute Network delayed time.
The trouble is here, that no two aircraft will be the same, so it's difficult to tell if the aircraft is appearing because of what you are doing, or if it was about to appear anyway :-)
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In the case of the COA I tracked I lost it on local overhead Grimsby (Max range for me), I switched off local and switched it back on 6 mins later it reappear on network just East of Grimsby and I tracked it all the way to Schipol where it has just landed.
The true test is to just leave Hardware Processing on and wait until the aircraft appears on the Network - 6 minutes is just too close to the 5 minute Network delayed time.
The trouble is here, that no two aircraft will be the same, so it's difficult to tell if the aircraft is appearing because of what you are doing, or if it was about to appear anyway :-)
Okay Allocator, I will pick a flight and track it leaving local on.
Tracking CSA643 west/east overhead Doncaster
Lost local at 11:03
Report back soon.
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I can see CSA643 at 11:10 - looks like it's been there for 2 or 3 Network updates? FL339 and climbing.
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It is not there for me after 10 mins just switched off local and it has appeared over the North Norfolk Coast.
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So for some reason the transition from Local to Network does not happen for me but at least I know all I have to do is switch off local flights.
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But it would be better if we can establish why it's not working for you, whereas it works okay for other users. At least then Airnav might be able to fix it.
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To see where the aircraft is on the Network, use the AirNav Live Flight Tracker:
http://www.ruyton.demon.co.uk/html/live_flight_tracker.html
I'm doing that right now with TOM385 which still hasn't reappeared south of BCN having gone through my overhead - it's there on Live Flight Tracker.
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Allocator, when I track an aircraft live, for example, going north towards the UK, I'll normally lose it (because of terrain) around the Loire valley - Angers, Tours area (dependent on it's Flight Level). When it reappears as a network flight (if it ever does) it's normally approaching the Isle of Wight, so I suppose that's getting on for 200 miles. The reverse is true for southbounds. There is usually other networked traffic present in the area at the time, and I would expect to see my target aircraft much earlier
Blackthorn, it may well be things can be improved by virtue of temporarily switching off local and switching it back on again, but not always. This is the subject of many postings and a long-awaited fix!
DC
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OK, followed TOM385 on Live Flight Tracker until it was off the south coast of the UK, nothing on RB. Deselected Process Hardware Flights and Bingo, TOM385 reappeared as a RB Network track.
I can't say I've noticed this happening before, so maybe it's a server logic thing?
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Okay now tracking KLM686 over Cheshire 11:27
Lost flight over Cranwell at 11:35
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Okay now tracking KLM686 over Cheshire 11:27
Showing OK on Live Flight Tracker. Mexico to Amsterdam at FL390:
http://www.ruyton.demon.co.uk/html/live_flight_tracker.html
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KLM686 seems to have downloaded an interesting photo - some sort of control tower!!
DC
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Okay now tracking KLM686 over Cheshire 11:27
Showing OK on Live Flight Tracker. Mexico to Amsterdam at FL390:
http://www.ruyton.demon.co.uk/html/live_flight_tracker.html
11:43 somthing tells me it will not reappear unless I switch off the local flights again but I will leave it off just to confirm that.
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11:48 and still not reappeared, I have just realised the wider implications of this problem. All aircraft I track are lost from the map when out of range.
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It had not shown by 11:53 so I switched off local, then my network flights increased from 830 to 893 and KLM686 appeared half way over the North Sea.
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Which is more or less my problem too. So the switching on and off of Hardware Flights has a bearing on whether or not one continues to receive network targets, and also whether or not some routes are displayed.
DC
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Ok, lets explain a few points:
1.) Obviously if you turn of process hardware it clears the memory table of the all the flights you have received locally. Hence all the network flights on the network will be shown unless at the moment you get a signal locally from one of them and in which case it takes precedent.
2.) Customers saying the flights never appear on the network after being in local are simply not waiting long enough or the area the aircraft is going into is not covered by anyone else.
Let me explain why it takes longer than 5 minutes and why I wrote in my first message in "theory" (I can't explain in too much detail as its a security risk for our network)
- RadarBox will use timestamps for when the aircraft was last received and then only display network tracks for that aircraft after the last received timestamp. However due to time differences in all our computers there may be a difference of a few minutes extra either way.
- As the network does not get data sent to it every second for an aircraft there will be a delay in new data received from other sources (especially if its only being picked up by another customer). As well as you the network is downloaded every 30 seconds. This could add again a few minutes at a max.
- Lastly the aircraft could just be going through a patch of area where there is no reception.
All in all its not easy to get the transition right as there is lots of factors and program wise its a difficult but the aircraft do appear after the transition but may take longer than the 5-6 minutes in theory. Hope that helps.
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I have since tracked two other flights and waited until the flights arrived at their destination Schipol using flighttracker and they did still not reappear on the Network flights after losing them locally.
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"...2.) Customers saying the flights never appear on the network after being in local are simply not waiting long enough or the area the aircraft is going into is not covered by anyone else..."
So how long is long enough? 20 - 30 minutes (or not at all) is obviously unacceptable. Also, if by the simple expedient of switching on and off Hardware one can resurrect the target aircraft from being invisible, clearly it was being tracked all the time - so presumably it should be showing on screen without having to keep switching something on and off continually. I can assure you that when I suggest traffic disappears from "Live", and fails to reappear as "Network", (where there is otherwise plenty of network activity) it is precisely because that is what is happening.
I sincerely hope you are not saying that this is not an issue, and consequently no fix will be available.
DC
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if by the simple expedient of switching on and off Hardware one can resurrect the target aircraft from being invisible, clearly it was being tracked all the time - so presumably it should be showing on screen without having to keep switching something on and off continually.
DC
I agree DC there is a problem here.
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The quote above from DC is not correct. Its more complex than that.
example you have local flights being picked up and network on:
1.) BAW001 is in range and is picked up locally
2.) Network download also contains BAW001 (5 minutes behind its location) but this ignored.
now as soon as BAW001 is out of range locally you can turn off hardware flights and it will clear the memory. Therefore it will show BAW001 from the network but it will be 5 minutes behind and be placed well in your range.
The hard part as we say is determing when you have lost contact and when the 5 minute delayed data has caught up and when safely to now allow the network data to be shown.
Its not as simple as you suggest as just turning of the hardware flights but complex.
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The quote above from DC is not correct. Its more complex than that.
example you have local flights being picked up and network on:
1.) BAW001 is in range and is picked up locally
2.) Network download also contains BAW001 (5 minutes behind its location) but this ignored.
now as soon as BAW001 is out of range locally you can turn off hardware flights and it will clear the memory. Therefore it will show BAW001 from the network but it will be 5 minutes behind and be placed well in your range.
The hard part as we say is determing when you have lost contact and when the 5 minute delayed data has caught up and when safely to now allow the network data to be shown.
Its not as simple as you suggest as just turning of the hardware flights but complex.
Please explain why BAW001 never shows up in network even 20 mins later yet others can see it?
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We are not sure why you are experiencing certain issues, what is your pc time set to and is it considerbly out of sync? Also what are your timeout settings?
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Airnav, if that's your answer, then I'm afraid it's meaningless gobbledygook to me.
I want to know why, in France, where I am receiving live targets up to about 200 nm, when my live targets leave my range they don't acquire network status when in range of another receiver, and display on my map accordingly. If I am following a particular flight, and it exits my range, I would expect to see it when it came within range of another receiver on the network without having to click a feature every five minutes to see if it appears, I've got better things to do. I was under the impression that this was part and parcel of the RadarBox package.
It's quite reasonable to expect to continue to automatically monitor a flight which has passed into network traffic, albeit with the 5 minute delay. That, I thought, was the whole point of the system.
If it won't do that, then come clean and admit it. This problem has been reported ad infinitum on this forum, and you've always given the impression that it's a known issue that is in the throes of being addressed. Now it seems, it may always be thus. I for one, am a tad disappointed if this is the case - it's daft to be expected to keep manually clicking buttons to see if a programme is performing reliably or not.
And kindly desist from describing everything I say as either incorrect, or a lie - quotes are cut and pasted, not invented. I am well able to make my own observations, and I thought this was the place to air them. I report what I see, and as a customer I expect a little empathy from you.
Now, once and for all, is this a fault or a "feature". If it's a fault (and several of us seem to think it may well be), will you fix it, or not? I apologise if I appear forthright and blunt, but I really can't be doing with all this shillyshallying around every time a sensitive issue involving this software rears it's head.
DC
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After some extensive testing this afternoon, I can also confirm that I now see the same bahaviour on some aircraft. The aircraft doesn't appear in the Network tab even after waiting 30 minutes. Un-check the hardware flights box, and the aircraft then appears.
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We are not sure why you are experiencing certain issues, what is your pc time set to and is it considerbly out of sync? Also what are your timeout settings?
My PC time is the correct time as the atomic clock on my desk
Time outs are Local 60/60 Network 90/180
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After some extensive testing this afternoon, I can also confirm that I now see the same bahaviour on some aircraft. The aircraft doesn't appear in the Network tab even after waiting 30 minutes. Un-check the hardware flights box, and the aircraft then appears.
Thankyou for testing this Tarbat they may listen to you. I have switched the Network off for the time being.
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OK chaps, lets keep this professional shall we ;-)
If there is a problem then I'm sure AirNav will look into it. Keep your hair on DC, it's a hobby not a matter of life and death.
Now, if I was being asked to provide a control service, then I might get a bit more excited :-0
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All,
Firstly please stop making assumptions so quickly a few of you love to quickly develop your own theory about the RB workings. It does not help but causes more confusion.
We will look into issues in this, if you have any issues which are related or can help us find the cause please email support direct.
DeadCalm,
We have been here many times with yourself, but in this case your quote was wrong and we have explained the details. You didn't understand our last post which proves why the network is complex and how your simple quote goes nowhere near the complexity of the network. We are not going to answer the rest of your post as the same items have been replied to you before.
Once again to all, we are a company which listens and takes advice and learns and rectifys issues.
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I have no theory about Radarbox working I was just reporting an issue I had come across tracking flights from local to Network
I think the information I provided this morning at the begining of the thread should help.
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It wasn't your theory Blackthorn :) Its perfectly fine reporting an issue.
Problem comes when certain customers don't understand the complexity behind the software and start making assumptions and trying to make things look so simple. Its not the case, if it was everything would be perfect :)
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Hi AirNav ,
I am a customer having the same problems .
I started a thread on that on Nov 10th ( you can search on " dan " ) .
I have tried it on 3 different PC's . 2 running under Windows XP and another on Windows Vista . Changed my computer time to UTC to be in the same time zone as where the transfert to Network should be happening . Also tried different Time Out settings.The only workaround is to uncheck " Process Hardware Flight" on My Flights and than check it on again . Only then I can see the flight(s) being transfert to Network .
On the other hand no problems with transferts from Network to local My Flights.
I am confident Airnav will come up with a solution.
Happy Newyear to all.
Dan.
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Followed RYR4AT (LIRA-EIDW) . Lost local at 1945utc near DET VOR . .
Not appearing on Network after waiting for more than 30 mins even it was crossing a dense covered Network area (London area) . In the meantime Following the flight on Live Flight tracker
At 2025utc ( 40 mins after ) unchecked 'Process Hardware flights " and RYR4AT appears on my Network Flights somewhere over the Irish sea. PC time set to UTC. Time Out local 60/60. Time Out Network 90/180 .
There is surely a problem here but why only to a few customers??
Best Rgds
Dan.
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As mentioned in the post please contact support with your details rather than posting in the forum as its easier for us to track and log.
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Hmm, well I finally got to read all of this after a day long absence, I didn't expect to start a thread which has lead to such a lot of aerated discussion.
The way I see it, this looks to me like some kind of time zone related problem with server provided data, it's generally harder to get this right in Windows than it is in Unix operating systems. All of my computers are all time synchronised using ntp, in theory their clocks are accurate to tens of microseconds.
Rather than asking for unverified observations, may I suggest that Airnav consider providing a debug version of the software that can store track data from the local receiver and the network together with local and server timestamps so that the relationship between the different data can be analysed? I know that this involves some work, but in the end it will make it easier to get accurate debugging done and make for simpler bug fixing.
As regards the 5 minute delay, I'll have to search for and read what has been said before. It is often the case that the powers that be in various countries don't actually analyse the things they are trying to prevent happening properly, and so they enforce restrictions that are of no actual use. Under the cover of "security", discussion is suppressed and the obscurity thus generated appears useful to the uninitiated but is often found to be useless when people able to analyse the situation correctly get involved. It will be instructive to determine whether this is the case for this situation.
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We do have debug versions but they are only sent out to specific beta customers.
Regarding the delay, its well known that many sites tried to broadcast the Live ATC feeds in the UK and they were all shutdown and threatened with law suits. We would not want to get into that area.
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We do have debug versions but they are only sent out to specific beta customers.
Regarding the delay, its well known that many sites tried to broadcast the Live ATC feeds in the UK and they were all shutdown and threatened with law suits. We would not want to get into that area.
OK on the debug versions, well perhaps a general feature that allows capturing of all track data with local and network timestamps, and other useful information would be a handy thing to have, but with the setting to enable it buried deeply so you really have to be really determined to use it.
Interesting about the threats of lawsuits, who exactly was making these threats?
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If they were shutdown and threatened with lawsuits it sounds like it would be the UK Government, regarding the security of flights again.
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If they were shutdown and threatened with lawsuits it sounds like it would be the UK Government, regarding the security of flights again.
I suppose it could be, I wondered if it might be NATS claiming that all such data is under their copyright.
Never fails to amaze me that there are these noisy things flying about in plain sight and somehow it is thought that pretending they are somewhere slightly different changes their security situation.
Seems I'm just a cynical old inquisitive Hector.....
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An interesting thread and my own experiments this afternoon confirm what seems to be the majority view.
Aircraft coming into My Flights range from Network will appear automatically much as forecast and expected.
However, aircraft leaving My Flights range will NOT appear on Network unless and until Process Hardware has been unticked.
Presumably stopping/re-starting hardware flights wipes a memory, which is no big deal for me but I can see how it could annoy some.
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Well, it does annoy me, particularly when you can't get a straight answer in plain English as to whether or not it will be addressed. It doesn't work as it should, it needs sorting.
It'll certainly have an impact on my decision when it comes to February, when I have to decide whether or not to renew my network subscription on my meagre NATS pension. I'll probably content myself with local flights only, as for me it's pointless continuing with network monitoring as it is.
DC
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"meagre NATS pension" :-o
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This issue like any other will, of course, be addressed when we have a new upgrade out.
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This issue like any other will, of course, be addressed when we have a new upgrade out.
Sorry, do you mean when the upgrade is out or before it so that any fix for this is included?
On a similar subject, do you have a formal bug tracking database (like Bugzilla for instance) that is accessible to your customers (or could be made so)? And do you (or could you) publish a ChangeLog with a new release so that the bug IDs dealt with can be cross-referenced with it? It would probably make your jobs easier as there would be less need for people to expect replies to questions here, thus saving you effort.
Worth a thought?
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"meagre NATS pension" :-o
Ah well you see, Swanwick went so far over budget they had to cut back somewhere ;-)
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All updates will be included on V2.10, not before that.
regarding bug tracking tool, we have but it is limited to our team. Support will give you more details on this.
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Fenris,
We do have bug tracking tool, though this is only for our beta group. We may in the future allow guest access to it so customers can view but can't enter anything unless they are in the beta group.
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Fenris,
We do have bug tracking tool, though this is only for our beta group. We may in the future allow guest access to it so customers can view but can't enter anything unless they are in the beta group.
Ah, an excellent idea. As an open source advocate, I'd say never underestimate the power of user feedback. It pinpoints problems very rapidly. This would be a great first step.