AirNav Systems Forum
AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com => AirNav RadarBox and RadarBox24.com Discussion => Topic started by: grasscutter on July 06, 2010, 11:23:15 PM
-
Anyone know how to determine the dept/arrival airports of the BA shuttle flights from the shuttle number showing. The same goes for BM.
-
Anyone know how to determine the dept/arrival airports of the BA shuttle flights from the shuttle number showing. The same goes for BM.
Here's an extract from my routes database:
BA1301 SHT19S EGPD-EGLL
BA1303 SHT19N EGPD-EGLL
BA1304 SHT18Z EGLL-EGPD
BA1305 SHT19U EGPD-EGLL
BA1306 SHT18Y EGLL-EGPD
BA1307 SHT19M EGPD-EGLL
BA1308 SHT18C EGLL-EGPD
BA1309 SHT19A EGPD-EGLL
BA1312 SHT18F EGLL-EGPD
BA1313 SHT19T EGPD-EGLL
BA1314 SHT18V EGLL-EGPD
BA1315 SHT19W EGPD-EGLL
BA1316 SHT18E EGLL-EGPD
BA1317 SHT19X EGPD-EGLL
BA1318 SHT18H EGLL-EGPD
BA1321 SHT13C EGNT-EGLL
BA1323 SHT13X EGNT-EGLL
BA1324 SHT12J EGLL-EGNT
BA1325 SHT13E EGNT-EGLL
BA1326 SHT12H EGLL-EGNT
BA1327 SHT13H EGNT-EGLL
BA1332 SHT12G EGLL-EGNT
BA1333 SHT13J EGNT-EGLL
BA1334 SHT12N EGLL-EGNT
BA1335 SHT13K EGNT-EGLL
BA1336 SHT12Q EGLL-EGNT
BA1337 SHT13L EGNT-EGLL
BA1338 SHT12T EGLL-EGNT
BA1382 SHT2A EGLL-EGCC
BA1384 SHT2E EGLL-EGCC
BA1385 SHT3N EGCC-EGLL
BA1386 SHT2J EGLL-EGCC
BA1387 SHT3P EGCC-EGLL
BA1388 SHT2M EGLL-EGCC
BA1389 SHT3R EGCC-EGLL
BA1391 SHT3U EGCC-EGLL
BA1394 SHT2V EGLL-EGCC
BA1395 SHT3F EGCC-EGLL
BA1396 SHT2P EGLL-EGCC
BA1399 SHT3L EGCC-EGLL
BA1402 SHT2K EGLL-EGCC
BA1403 SHT3V EGCC-EGLL
BA1404 SHT2R EGLL-EGCC
BA1407 SHT3Y EGCC-EGLL
BA1409 SHT3Z EGCC-EGLL
BA1432 SHT8B EGLL-EGPH
BA1433 SHT9T EGPH-EGLL
BA1434 SHT8F EGLL-EGPH
BA1435 SHT9U EGPH-EGLL
BA1438 SHT8K EGLL-EGPH
BA1439 SHT9F EGPH-EGLL
BA1441 SHT9Z EGPH-EGLL
BA1442 SHT8R EGLL-EGPH
BA1443 SHT9B EGPH-EGLL
BA1445 SHT9J EGPH-EGLL
BA1446 SHT8Y EGLL-EGPH
BA1448 SHT8A EGLL-EGPH
BA1452 SHT8C EGLL-EGPH
BA1453 SHT9N EGPH-EGLL
BA1454 SHT8H EGLL-EGPH
BA1455 SHT9P EGPH-EGLL
BA1458 SHT8L EGLL-EGPH
BA1459 SHT9Y EGPH-EGLL
BA1462 SHT8V EGLL-EGPH
BA1463 SHT9C EGPH-EGLL
BA1464 SHT8S EGLL-EGPH
BA1465 SHT9E EGPH-EGLL
BA1472 SHT6C EGLL-EGPF
BA1474 SHT6G EGLL-EGPF
BA1475 SHT7S EGPF-EGLL
BA1476 SHT6L EGLL-EGPF
BA1477 SHT7Y EGPF-EGLL
BA1479 SHT7W EGPF-EGLL
BA1482 SHT6T EGLL-EGPF
BA1483 SHT7Z EGPF-EGLL
BA1484 SHT6R EGLL-EGPF
BA1486 SHT6E EGLL-EGPF
BA1487 SHT7H EGPF-EGLL
BA1488 SHT6F EGLL-EGPF
BA1489 SHT7P EGPF-EGLL
BA1492 SHT6J EGLL-EGPF
BA1493 SHT7U EGPF-EGLL
BA1494 SHT6M EGLL-EGPF
BA1495 SHT7X EGPF-EGLL
BA1497 SHT7A EGPF-EGLL
BD001 BMA1NL EGPF-EGLL
BD002 BMA2CW EGLL-EGPF
BD003 BMA3NL EGPF-EGLL
BD004 BMA4CW EGLL-EGPF
BD006 BMA6CW EGLL-EGPF
BD007 BMA7NL EGPF-EGLL
BD008 BMA8CW EGLL-EGPF
BD009 BMA9NL EGPF-EGLL
BD010 BMA3LN EGLL-EGPF
BD011 BMA1WC EGPF-EGLL
BD012 BMA2LN EGLL-EGPF
BD013 BMA3WC EGPF-EGLL
BD014 BMA4LN EGLL-EGPF
BD015 BMA5WC EGPF-EGLL
BD016 BMA9CW EGLL-EGPF
BD018 BMA18 EGLL-EGPF
BD019 BMA19 EGPF-EGLL
BD020 BMA20 EGLL-EGPF
BD050 BMA3HY EGLL-EGPH
BD051 BMA9EH EGPH-EGLL
BD052 BMA4HY EGLL-EGPH
BD053 BMA1EH EGPH-EGLL
BD054 BMA5HY EGLL-EGPH
BD055 BMA2EH EGPH-EGLL
BD056 BMA2HY EGLL-EGPH
BD057 BMA3EH EGPH-EGLL
BD058 BMA7HY EGLL-EGPH
BD059 BMA4EH EGPH-EGLL
BD060 BMA8HY EGLL-EGPH
BD061 BMA5EH EGPH-EGLL
BD062 BMA9HY EGLL-EGPH
BD063 BMA6EH EGPH-EGLL
BD064 BMA1HY EGLL-EGPH
BD065 BMA7EH EGPH-EGLL
BD080 BMA9FP EGLL-EGAC
BD081 BMA81F EGAC-EGLL
BD082 BMA2FP EGLL-EGAC
BD083 BMA9XF EGAC-EGLL
BD084 BMA3FP EGLL-EGAC
BD085 BMA2XF EGAC-EGLL
BD086 BMA4FP EGLL-EGAC
BD087 BMA87G EGAC-EGLL
BD088 BMA5FP EGLL-EGAC
BD089 BMA4XF EGAC-EGLL
BD090 BMA6FP EGLL-EGAC
BD091 BMA5XF EGAC-EGLL
BD092 BMA7FP EGLL-EGAC
BD093 BMA6XF EGAC-EGLL
BD575 BMA575 EGCC-EGLL
BD576 BMA576 EGLL-EGCC
BD577 BMA577 EGCC-EGLL
BD578 BMA578 EGLL-EGCC
BD579 BMA579 EGCC-EGLL
BD581 BMA4PK EGCC-EGLL
BD582 BMA5QA EGLL-EGCC
BD584 BMA7QA EGLL-EGCC
BD585 BMA2PK EGCC-EGLL
BD587 BMA8PK EGCC-EGLL
BD588 BMA588 EGLL-EGCC
BD589 BMA589 EGCC-EGLL
BD590 BMA4QA EGLL-EGCC
BD591 BMA1PK EGCC-EGLL
BD592 BMA1QA EGLL-EGCC
BD593 BMA7PK EGCC-EGLL
BD594 BMA8QA EGLL-EGCC
BD598 BMA598 EGLL-EGCC
BD668 BMA668 EGLL-EGPD
BD669 BMA669 EGPD-EGLL
BD671 BMA671 EGPD-EGLL
BD672 BMA672 EGLL-EGPD
BD673 BMA673 EGPD-EGLL
BD674 BMA674 EGLL-EGPD
BD675 BMA675 EGPD-EGLL
BD676 BMA676 EGLL-EGPD
BD677 BMA67G EGPD-EGLL
BD678 BMA678 EGLL-EGPD
BD679 BMA679 EGPD-EGLL
BD680 BMA680 EGLL-EGPD
HTH
Dave
-
Hi Dave - am I right in assuming that all those in your list are already in our databases and therefore appear automatically in MyFlights?
John
-
Hi Dave - am I right in assuming that all those in your list are already in our databases and therefore appear automatically in MyFlights?
I'm afraid I have no idea. I haven't had any discussions with Airnav about providing route data, although of course they are perfectly free to use the above information if they so wish.
All I know is that the server doesn't currently seem to be returning routes for any of the alphanumeric flight numbers, although it does recognise some (but not all) of the purely numeric ones such as the BD Aberdeen flights, e.g. BMA672, but not BMA671.
-
Thanks Dave, especially for typing in the long list!!!! Are there other references I can look at for eg RYR 2YP and EZY 12BL and charter flights eg TOM 6VL?
-
Thanks Dave, especially for typing in the long list!!!!
No typing involved, just a couple of mouse-clicks to run a query on my database :-)
Are there other references I can look at for eg RYR 2YP and EZY 12BL and charter flights eg TOM 6VL?
EZY12BL is EGGW-LEBL. TOM6VL is EGTE-LCPH.
RYR2P is a flight number used by Ryanair for ad hoc positioning flights (hence the unusual single letter P suffix). So there's no point in having an entry in the routes database for that one.
HTH
Dave
-
I'm afraid I have no idea. I haven't had any discussions with Airnav about providing route data, although of course they are perfectly free to use the above information if they so wish.
This clearly illustrates one aspect of the problem that I simply can't grasp - no doubt due to my lack of technical knowledge as to how the systems work.
There is a load of information regarding the flight/route details available and in the public domain. This is clearly illustrated by your ability to produce the list above. However, for whatever reasons, seemingly this same information cannot be collected, collated & then packaged up into a file that can be downloaded and put into our databases.
It is so frustrating to know that the details of the routeless flights in my MyFlights can simply be Googled!!! Years ago in the Wacars/Acars days, if Lufthansa for example produced a summer schedule, the excellent and much esteemed Terry Wade had it listed and downloadable in a flash. Simples!! Apparently not. :(
Afraid I'm developing an unhealthy paranoia about routes but it comes to something when Grasscutter can innocently ask for Shuttle details and you can give him chapter and verse.
-
This clearly illustrates one aspect of the problem that I simply can't grasp - no doubt due to my lack of technical knowledge as to how the systems work.
There is a load of information regarding the flight/route details available and in the public domain. This is clearly illustrated by your ability to produce the list above. However, for whatever reasons, seemingly this same information cannot be collected, collated & then packaged up into a file that can be downloaded and put into our databases.
It's not a technical issue at all, it's simply a question of applying some resources (time, money, industry knowledge) to the problem.
My views on AirNav's approach to gathering data are well known and I won't repeat them here (no disrespect intended towards those who enthusiastically contribute information).
We've already been told, quite understandably, by the updating team that they have their hands full with aircraft updates and don't have any spare capacity to collate routes data.
-
I'm afraid I have no idea. I haven't had any discussions with Airnav about providing route data, although of course they are perfectly free to use the above information if they so wish.
This clearly illustrates one aspect of the problem that I simply can't grasp - no doubt due to my lack of technical knowledge as to how the systems work.
There is a load of information regarding the flight/route details available and in the public domain. This is clearly illustrated by your ability to produce the list above.
There is a lot of info in the public domain, but it is not centrally collated. Airnav need a single source. Currently their source is flightstats. The person that can produce a breakdown of Easyjet Alpha-numeric tie-ups cannot give you data for China Southern Airlines or Chautauqua or Webjet Brazil or OLT Germany or New Zealands Great Barrier Air. You seem to think Airnav are UK centric and must oblige all the UK market. They are not, they must oblige the worldwide market. Airnav need one source for these all. Flightstats do a good job, but to tie up all routes for all worldwide airlines would require a team of around 200 worldwide correspondents constantly monitoring it. No company in the world would dedicate those resources to this hobby.
Airnav take the best current central info currently available on the web, that flighstats provide, at not inconsiderable cost. They have given you the best solution in that they created an open architechture database for you to update records that you find from the 6-7000 open source public domain sources for flight details. If you have a beef about routes, take that up with Airnav's supplier Flightstats. Airnav do a great job providing the architecture you need to modify the central data to suit your region.
-
There is a lot of info in the public domain, but it is not centrally collated. Airnav need a single source. Currently their source is flightstats. The person that can produce a breakdown of Easyjet Alpha-numeric tie-ups cannot give you data for China Southern Airlines or Chautauqua or Webjet Brazil or OLT Germany or New Zealands Great Barrier Air. You seem to think Airnav are UK centric and must oblige all the UK market. They are not, they must oblige the worldwide market. Airnav need one source for these all. Flightstats do a good job, but to tie up all routes for all worldwide airlines would require a team of around 200 worldwide correspondents constantly monitoring it. No company in the world would dedicate those resources to this hobby.
Airnav take the best current central info currently available on the web, that flighstats provide, at not inconsiderable cost. They have given you the best solution in that they created an open architechture database for you to update records that you find from the 6-7000 open source public domain sources for flight details. If you have a beef about routes, take that up with Airnav's supplier Flightstats. Airnav do a great job providing the architecture you need to modify the central data to suit your region.
Thanks for that ACW367. A couple of points I would make:
"You seem to think Airnav are UK centric and must oblige all the UK market. They are not, they must oblige the worldwide market."
If the product is marketed and sold in the UK, then the UK buyer/subscriber has every right to expect that details of "local" airlines such as Ryanair, Easyjet etc are fully covered. These are not peanut operations with half a dozen planes and they form a substantial part not only of the UK picture but of the European picture as well.
"Worldwide market" does not define a product that has different but limited applications in different countries - it defines a product that can be used satisfactorily in all countries in which it is intended to be sold and used. TV, car or kettle, it has to be fit for purpose. Also "if I have a beef" about anything, I don't take it up with a components supplier, but the manufacturer.
Secondly : "Airnav do a great job providing the architecture you need to modify the central data to suit your region"
For me this is the nub of the matter. If I accept your view that worldwide coverage of all details of all aircraft from a single source is economically (and physically) a non-starter, then provision for simple idiot-proof manual updating on a local basis is the alternative. That means for many of us a quick download of collected & collated information such as Dave has provided above.
This is where I own up to and accept my singular lack of technical knowledge. Are you saying that I should be able to manually update my own routes database? If so, it is presumably sufficiently easy enough for me to take Dave's route information and just fire it in to my PC?
The final question then is how do I do it please?
-
The final question then is how do I do it please?
This is how I imported Dave's list - it took 2 minutes.
1. Copy the list to clipboard
2. Paste into Notepad and add a CH date/timestamp
3. Save as text.csv
4. Import this file to the routes table using SQLite Maestro, with " " as the delimiter.
btw, thanks for the list Dave. Do you have anything on Loganair?
-
Thanks Tarbat.
What's a CHdate/timestamp and what and where do I find this SQLite Maestro please?
Oh, and what's the "delimiter"?
Painful I know but at least I was a whizz in my own field once upon a time.
-
What's a CHdate/timestamp
CH is the field in the routes table used to determine when the route should be expired. So, routes I added today had a CH date/timestamp of 20100707090000
what and where do I find this SQLite Maestro please?
It's an SQLite database tool - http://www.sqlmaestro.com/en/products/sqlite/maestro/
Oh, and what's the "delimiter"?
The field used in a CSV file to delimit each database field. It's usually a comma (hence CSV = comma separated values), but SQLite Maestro can also accept CSV files with alternative delimiters such as a space.
You'll end up with these record in the routes table:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4097/4770561505_86901d03e9_b.jpg)
And this example in MyFlights:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4096/4771206134_c9a0f03887.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarbat/4771206134/sizes/o/)
-
btw, thanks for the list Dave. Do you have anything on Loganair?
You're welcome.
As I mentioned before, Loganair are on my to-do list, but alas not very near the top :-)
-
Thanks Tarbat - that will keep me out of mischief for a while.
Most kind of you - John
-
As I mentioned before, Loganair are on my to-do list, but alas not very near the top :-)
Thanks. Any hints/tips on how I could go about finding the Loganair Flight IDs?
-
Thanks. Any hints/tips on how I could go about finding the Loganair Flight IDs?
Well the route network is easy enough to establish from the flyBE and Loganair websites. Then it's just a case of sitting down with a resource like libhomeradar and working out which departures follow which arrivals, making sure that the timings are geographically feasible.
I will confess to having an advantage in that I used to do this kind of thing all the time when I was doing route analyses for an aircraft manufacturer - and that was in pre-Internet days when all we had to work from was the big ABC World Airways Guide !
-
Well the route network is easy enough to establish from the flyBE and Loganair websites. Then it's just a case of sitting down with a resource like libhomeradar and working out which departures follow which arrivals, making sure that the timings are geographically feasible.
Thanks Dave, that's the sort of thing I've been trying to do with Loganair flights. But it seems to involve a lot of guesswork :( If only I could get reliable MLAT'ing up here.
-
For shuttle and alpha-numeric flightnumbers, or more correctly callsigns, I tend to use the libhomeradar web. (purely as a look-up facility) and am quite pleased with the results. For my afternoon session on 127.95 (''VATON Sector'') on which many RYR, EZY etc come up with alpha-numeric calls, it de-coded all of the routings except one or two.
-
I've created a .csv file from the above flight numbers and added them to the NavData.db3 with SQLmaestro. The new flights show as added in SQLmaestro, but not in database explorer within Airnav. I've attached the csv file.
What am i doing wrong?
-
Earlier today in response to:
"You seem to think Airnav are UK centric and must oblige all the UK market. They are not, they must oblige the worldwide market."
I somewhat hastily replied:
"......the UK buyer/subscriber has every right to expect that details of "local" airlines such as Ryanair, Easyjet etc are fully covered. These are not peanut operations with half a dozen planes and they form a substantial part not only of the UK picture but of the European picture as well."
Being concerned that I might have overstated things, I've just run a quick count of "Airlines" in today's log. The figures are:
BA 170
Ryanair 135
Easyjet 123
Flybe 64
BMI/Baby 53
and apart from
Lufthansa 85
KLM 66
Air France 51
no other Airline had more than 38 (Thos Cook and Thomson had 33 each)
"UK centric"? With a screenful of UK airlines, one could hardly respond any other way.
-
I've created a .csv file from the above flight numbers and added them to the NavData.db3 with SQLmaestro. The new flights show as added in SQLmaestro, but not in database explorer within Airnav. I've attached the csv file.
What am i doing wrong?
1. Any errors reported when importing in SQLite Maestro?
2. What Operating System? If Vista or Win7, are you sure you know where the navdata database is located?
-
1. Any errors reported when importing in SQLite Maestro?
No errors reported.
2. What Operating System? If Vista or Win7, are you sure you know where the navdata database is located?
Using Windows 7 Ultimate x64 and NavData.db3 in Airnav Systems/Airnav Rardarbox/Data folder.
I've backed up the original.
I've attached a screenshot of the Navdata.db3 file opened within SQLmaestro with the new data added.
-
Earlier today in response to:
"You seem to think Airnav are UK centric and must oblige all the UK market. They are not, they must oblige the worldwide market."
I somewhat hastily replied:
"......the UK buyer/subscriber has every right to expect that details of "local" airlines such as Ryanair, Easyjet etc are fully covered. These are not peanut operations with half a dozen planes and they form a substantial part not only of the UK picture but of the European picture as well."
Being concerned that I might have overstated things, I've just run a quick count of "Airlines" in today's log. The figures are:
BA 170
Ryanair 135
Easyjet 123
Flybe 64
BMI/Baby 53
and apart from
Lufthansa 85
KLM 66
Air France 51
no other Airline had more than 38 (Thos Cook and Thomson had 33 each)
"UK centric"? With a screenful of UK airlines, one could hardly respond any other way.
Bratters - I was not saying that you individually were not UK centric. I was saying that Airnav should not concentrate solely on the UK, because UK people complain the loudest on this forum. Don't do the count on myflights, look on the network. Remember Non-european airlines are much slower getting ADS_B so factor the non european aircraft on the network by a factor of 4 to cover this. IE no AA or DL MD80, No taiwan airlines or Japan domestic etc. You will see that non-european aircraft outweigh europe ones (remember to factor time zones). Each will have a flight routing, sometimes using Alpha-numeric.
Therefore Airnav need to treat the whole world equally, sourcing routes for Airlines worldwide. At the moment we have returns on the network from at least 15 states of the USA, three caribbean islands, three south american countries, just about every state in Europe, two locations in Russia, Namibia, Morocco, South Africa, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia & New Zealand. Each of these will have users that would like to see routes for the large regional carriers that appear on their screens. However most of them are aware that there will of course be limitations to what Airnav can do.
What I said is Airnav needs a system (they have chosen Flightstats) to cover all those regions. Demanding that they develop a seperate system to cover three or four UK airlines that do not have any published online tie-up for their codes and therefore are not converted by flightstats is a very selfish and self centric demand. You are saying ignore users seeing large airlines in China, Australia because I want mine only.
That is what I meant about you wanting a UK centric system. Airnav is Worldwide. The UK is a very small proportion of total airnav users, but we hold the majority of active forum posters. Therefore it seems to certain users that the UK should be treated as a special case. I vhermentally disagree with that view. Most users in other regions monitor this forum, but have thier own forums (in thier native languages) to exchange info and views with other users in their region.
-
Using Windows 7 Ultimate x64 and NavData.db3 in Airnav Systems/Airnav Rardarbox/Data folder.
There's your problem. You've been updating the wrong database. The "live" database will be in Win7's Virtual Store at C:\Users\xxxxxxxx\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\AirNav Systems\AirNav RadarBox\Data\NavData.db3
You would have been better advised to install in a non-default folder such as C:\AirNav Systems\AirNav RadarBox\ to avoid all the complications of the Win7 Virtual Store :(
-
Bratters
Going back to the original topic
Shuttle flights are easy to decode because the first number is always related to the airport pair and has been for a number of years. Easyjet and Ryanair re-invent their Alpha-numeric codes just about on a six-monthly cycle as the new timetables come out. Further compounding the problems for Flightstats or anyone else to accurately assure the tie-up.
-
Using Windows 7 Ultimate x64 and NavData.db3 in Airnav Systems/Airnav Rardarbox/Data folder.
There's your problem. You've been updating the wrong database. The "live" database will be in Win7's Virtual Store at C:\Users\xxxxxxxx\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\AirNav Systems\AirNav RadarBox\Data\NavData.db3
You would have been better advised to install in a non-default folder such as C:\AirNav Systems\AirNav RadarBox\ to avoid all the complications of the Win7 Virtual Store :(
Thanks got it working.
-
Hi again ACW - interesting debate and just what forums are for.
I have to say I can only see Radarbox from the perspective of a paid up customer living in England who bought the box in the belief/hope that it would meet his personal requirements.
My interest centres on the activities at my local airport(s) and to this end I type in my local airport, click on "Airport" and hopefully I see some aircraft comings and goings on screen.
At least that's how it used to be but now, because of the lack of route details, I see very few comings and goings. In fact I see precious little and could be forgiven for thinking the airport had shut down.
I am not saying "ignore users seeing large airlines in China, Australia because I want mine only". I am not in fact saying anything about users elsewhere. Why? Because I AM NOT REMOTELY INTERESTED in users elsewhere. I don't care if there are boxes sited in the Outer Hebrides, Outer Mongolia or Outer Space but I do care, and care very much, that the box located in my home can't provide me with vital details of aircraft located 15 bloomin' miles away.
I bought my box from a little shop down the road on the understanding that it would provide coverage and data of the aircraft flying in MY area via signals received by MY aerial in MY house.
This is what you perceive as "a very selfish and self centric demand". Good Grief!!! What planet are you on? Why else would I, or anyone else, part with £400 plus another £120 for an aerial if it wasn't to see my local flights? Surely that's the basis on which the box was sold - or have I totally misinterpreted matters and Airnav is in fact a charity and I should be worrying about the folk in China!!!!
Maybe happiness is being a paid-up member of an international group of aviation enthusiasts? Perhaps we should be ecstatic about the fact that Airnav has users in Timbuctoo? All fine & dandy but it will cut no ice with people when their boxes don't deliver.
Now back, as you said, to the original topic. In the unfortunate event of some airlines being naughty and changing things, that is a problem for the manufacturer of the equipment. It may be unexpected and it may be tough but it's their problem and it's got to be solved.
Consideration will have to be given to this occurrence happening again, perhaps more frequently so any solution will need to be long term. Any solution also needs to be simple because many users are not particularly computer "literate" and no indication was given at time of purchase that they needed to be so. If the problems can't be fixed, then us "selfish" users with our purely National interests will go elsewhere - and Airnav will find that their large international number was in fact no more than many local numbers added together.
Not an easy problem, but after 50 years running various enterprises with a modicum of success, I know what happens if you don't anticipate and, worse, can't respond quickly to things going pearshaped.
Ask BP.
-
Pheew you guys in the UK are tough ;)
I can only imagine what it takes to keep a worldwide database of aircraft, flights, airlines, etc up to date. Personally I would put it close to impossible but I live in a 3rd world country (or so we were told when we applied to host the World Cup)
I must admit I did not expect to have my database updated for the ZAR5 000 odd that I paid for the hardware
-
Now back, as you said, to the original topic. In the unfortunate event of some airlines being naughty and changing things, that is a problem for the manufacturer of the equipment. It may be unexpected and it may be tough but it's their problem and it's got to be solved
Even if it’s impossible and can't be done by websites (tracking aircraft or route lookup sites) whose main job are to track flights?
What do you suggest we do? (Please also remember we are the ONLY ADS-B receiver to actually do this, everybody else doesn't touch this task and leaves it up to the customers or add-ons)
Its interesting here, in the Aircraft database we have gone down the route originally GAS an enthusiast database and then onto volunteer database updaters. In the routes case we have got into an agreement with another company to provide this information. Both cases are not perfect.
Sorry to be pendatic though where in our leaflets, information etc did we say the route data is 100% accurate for the whole world?
-
Who are you going to moan to when VHF FM radio goes digital in 2015, the radio manufacterers?
J.
-
Who are you going to moan to when VHF FM radio goes digital in 2015, the radio manufacterers?
J.
Nope - just buy a new radio. (Truth is it's looking less and less likely now!)
-
Now back, as you said, to the original topic. In the unfortunate event of some airlines being naughty and changing things, that is a problem for the manufacturer of the equipment. It may be unexpected and it may be tough but it's their problem and it's got to be solved
Even if it’s impossible and can't be done by websites (tracking aircraft or route lookup sites) whose main job are to track flights?
What do you suggest we do?
To a degree you have my sympathy in that changes beyond your control are reducing the accuracy and effectiveness of your product. What I am saying is that if the volume of number changes increases, the situation will deteriorate until it reaches a stage where the viability of the box itself is threatened.
Since you ask, I would address the problem with a clean sheet of paper. What can we do if airlines continue to change flight numbers on a regular basis? Whether you obtain information from commercial sources or from squads of volunteers, I think it is incumbent on you to prepare and offer regular "batch" updates by means of downloads to your customers.
It's a bit like Jeremy's radio analogy. As the changes progress so existing equipment will pick up less and less until it become useless. So you have buy a new one.
Sorry to be pendatic though where in our leaflets, information etc did we say the route data is 100% accurate for the whole world?
Nowhere as far as I know but then I doubt if any of your customers is seeking 100% accuracy for the whole world. Most will be more interested in the %age accuracy for their own little patch.
On which note what would you consider an acceptable figure for here in the UK for instance? 50%, 55%, 60%? What number would you be prepared to state in your information?
Not easy but no point in blaming the customer who is merely pointing out that things ain't what they was.
-
We are not blaming anyone, we just think "It may be unexpected and it may be tough but it's their problem and it's got to be solved" is a tad harsh.
I don't think we state anywhere that we have an extensive accurate route database either which updates.
At present using Flightstats, other than aplhanumeric flights it does pull through the data fine and the vast majority of those are accurate. As mentioned before we are hoping Flightstats will rectifty the issue otherwise if lookup tables are around we will put them in place.
-
quote author=AirNav Support link=topic=5190.msg52225#msg52225 date=1278593321]
I don't think we state anywhere that we have an extensive accurate route database either which updates.
[/quote]
Maybe not - I guess I sort of expected it had to be part of the deal. You're certainly not going to say you haven't got an extensive routes database, that's for sure :)
Anyway, let's plod on and see what happens.
BTW I assume that this problem affects your ocmpetitors too or have they developed a work-round?
-
Surely the ideal solution is to come up with an automatic way of working out where flights originate and land. If callsign EZY5592PZ is seen climbing from 0ft to 2,000ft close to Stansted and then descending from 15,000ft to 0ft at Amsterdam it is clear that EZY5592PZ is EGSS to EHAM.
Dave mentioned in another thread that it is possible to automatically work out if planes are landing/taking off or merely passing high overhead - would this not offer a potential solution?
Jon
-
bratters,
Our ADS-B comeptitors do not even provide a solution for routes themsleves. They pass this on to the customers or add-ons. Furthermore we have not promised a updated route database in our features list.
Thats the point we are getting at, some flack from some customers and yourself saying we paid xyz and we expect this. The reality is we have provided that and we go beyond by this linkup with FlightStats. Those of you who are saying this should calm down for a second and realise the task in hand and what we have done so far.
BlinkNFG,
That solution will work if we have enough stations covering that area. This by no means a easy process to make, regardless confirming whether its correct. Furthermore with some people saying some airlines are added the alphanumerics at random depending on what sector they are then this method would not work for very long.
-
BTW I assume that this problem affects your ocmpetitors too or have they developed a work-round?
It certainly does affect the addons used by SBS-1 owners to get route details. See http://www.kinetic-avionics.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12581
-
Our ADS-B comeptitors do not even provide a solution for routes themsleves. They pass this on to the customers or add-ons. Furthermore we have not promised a updated route database in our features list.
I think the problem is that people read (in the RadarBox vs SBS-1 competitive comparison) that RadarBox lets you "see route details for aircraft with valid Flight ID's".
Maybe that statement needs some qualification in order to manage customers' expectations.
That solution will work if we have enough stations covering that area. This by no means a easy process to make, regardless confirming whether its correct. Furthermore with some people saying some airlines are added the alphanumerics at random depending on what sector they are then this method would not work for very long.
Nobody is saying that the process is easy, but I think you exaggerate the difficulty.
Alphanumeric flight number = callsign = Flight ID as entered on the flightplan.
Since most airline operations would grind to a halt if they were not able to file repetitive flightplans, it's perfectly reasonable to expect a tieup between a flight number and an alphanumeric callsign to last for a season, if not longer.
-
Dave.
Just to confuse things further, the new flight planning systems dont use RPL's anymore, we at BA file all our flight plans automatically everyday and I am sure EZY do the same as we both use the same flight planning system. These new systems are so dynamic that RPL's are becoming a thing of the past and it is very easy to change the callsign on a daily basis if we wanted to.
-
These new systems are so dynamic that RPL's are becoming a thing of the past and it is very easy to change the callsign on a daily basis if we wanted to.
Out of interest, how do you coordinate your callsigns with other airlines to ensure that you avoid conflicts ? I'm assuming that you wouldn't change an alphanumeric callsign unilaterally unless you were sure that there would be no scope for confusion en route.
And would you be the person to complain to about the BAW580 to LIMC departing on two occasions this week with BAW850 (to EPWA) as its Mode S Flight ID ? :-)
-
These new systems are so dynamic that RPL's are becoming a thing of the past and it is very easy to change the callsign on a daily basis if we wanted to.
Hmm. That doesn't sound too good for those of us interested in routes.
Would changing the callsign on a daily basis mean that there was absolutely no way that the route could be ascertained?
-
Dave
Flight numbers are allocated to flights by our commercial dept. If we have a callsign confusion ASR (Air Safety Report) they are then allocated an alpha numeric callsign. We do not take into account any other carriers callsigns unless they are reported as a possible conflict by ATC. In the good old days flight numbers in BA were allocated by geographical regions, but now we seem to have a real mix BA253 to Nassau, BA255 to Lusaka and BA257 to Delhi. When we plan long and shorthaul flights these days the ATC plan files as soon as released. All callsigns are generally allocated for the whole or rest of the season.
As for wrong callsigns on Mode S this is either down to finger trouble by the crew or faulty Nav unit.
-
To confuse things further if there is an adjustment to the schedule i.e. a different airport slot (these are different to ATC slots) then we either put a 1 or 2 on the callsign if no alpha numeric is allocated. This can be the BA1038 instead of the 038 and currently we have the BA2248 from GIG to LHR which is the BA248.
As you can see just from BA alone AIRNAV dont stand a chance to have routings 100pct let alone all the other airlines doing the same.
-
If we have a callsign confusion ASR (Air Safety Report) they are then allocated an alpha numeric callsign. We do not take into account any other carriers callsigns unless they are reported as a possible conflict by ATC.
I'm having trouble getting my head around this.
For example, last Saturday at Heathrow alone there were 109 BAW movements where an alphanumeric callsign was used in lieu of the commercial flight number.
Clearly we're not talking about each of these 109 callsigns having been generated as a consequence of a previous Air Safety Report.
When you say "reported as a possible conflict by ATC", that seems to be a failure in the system if it has got to the stage where an ATC unit is working two flights with confusingly similar callsigns at the same time.
Surely there must be callsign coordination taking place at a higher, wider level - isn't Eurocontrol involved ?
-
To confuse things further if there is an adjustment to the schedule i.e. a different airport slot (these are different to ATC slots) then we either put a 1 or 2 on the callsign if no alpha numeric is allocated. This can be the BA1038 instead of the 038 and currently we have the BA2248 from GIG to LHR which is the BA248.
As you can see just from BA alone AIRNAV dont stand a chance to have routings 100pct let alone all the other airlines doing the same.
I guess that answers my question! More and more mystery flights. We're gonna need some lateral thinking here.
-
Dave.
You wont believe the trouble we have with Eurocontrol. I have a friend who works there and even he says things are getting worse!!! It might seem to be one organisation from the outside but inside there are at 27 different views.
As regards BA alpha numerics, this is the bugbear of my life, because in the past BA were the first to be asked to change the callsign if there was a conflict and we would accordingly oblige to help out, but now we are seen as the easy option and always asked first.